post your Special Unit balancing ideas here

[ElPared]

since there are a LOT of threads now about how under/overpowered the Bramble is, I think it might be time to start another "how to balance the special units" thread. So here are my ideas, and feel free to post your own

Mobi: I think Mobi is perfect the way it is. No change

Bombshell: I think Bombshell is the most OP unit in the game. It's incredibly hard to kill, easy to defend and more than one of them is almost unstoppable. I have 2 ideas on how to "fix" it:

1: have it spawn shelled. This would be both a nerf and a buff. A buff because it would have an impact the turn you play it like all the other specials. However this is a nerf because it effectively makes it cost 10 wits to make one. 7 to spawn +1 to unshell +1 to move +1 more to reshell.

2: it can unshell and move, in the same turn, but it cannot move and shell in the same turn. It can also shell and fire in the same turn. This forces the bombshell to be exposed in it's unarmored state for a turn if you want to move it, allowing your opponent the chance to punish you for defending it poorly.

-and one last thing for both ideas: the maximum number of wits a Bombshell can gain for killing units is 1. This removes the wit advantage gained from killing more than one unit with splash damage.

Scrambler: the problem with Scramblers is they're frail, and because their ability is so strong any buff to them could make them totally OP. My fix (which is probably pretty OP):

-Allow Scrambler to brainwash from a distance of 2 hexes, but remove the +1 wit for scrambling units. This rewards the Feedback player for defending their Scrambler but also puts them at a wit disadvantage when brainwashing units.

Bramble: There are a lot of suggestions for "fixing" the Bramble, but here's mine:

-Increase thorn HP back to 3, remove ability for thorns to attack. Instead, when a thorn is attacked in melee it deals 1 damage to the unit that attacked it at a range of 1. For example if a 3 HP soldier attacked a thorn, the thorn would go to 1 HP, and retaliate for 1 damage, bringing the soldier to 2. If a Sniper attacked the same thorn, the thorn would be destroyed and the sniper would take no damage unless it attacked the thorn point blank.

-Add some way to track which thorns are parents of other thorns. This could be done simply by highlighting all thorns that are children of a thorn when that thorn is tapped (by either player). This would make taking down chains of thorns easier for the opponent, but also make it easier to for the V player to figure out which thorns made what.

[TheGoldenGriffin]

I think the only special unit that needs fixing is Bramble. I think that Scramblers should also get -1 hp for scrambling thorn patches because it would get pricked by interacting with it during the scrambling process but Bombshells and snipers don't get pricked because they're killing at a distance.

[laYahooz]

The game is very balanced right now as fair as I'm concerned.

[Ser Purple Wolf]

(03-28-2013 09:04 AM)laYahooz Wrote:  The game is very balanced right now as fair as I'm concerned.

Boom! Thread Closed. (I wish)

[bobolynx]

Lol, the scrambler thing is prolly too op, and imagine in multiplayer! With brambles lol. Suggested elsewhere that you could have healing the youngest thorn heal it's parents, making nice medic interactions, hopefully new playing tactics.

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Maybe you could gain a second wit for scrambling

[ElPared]

Yeah I mostly just started this to hopefully absorb some of the "bramble is too XYZ!" threads.

I do think BS is pretty OP though. Or perhaps it is the most balanced and Scrambler and Bramble need to be buffed to match.

I would settle for Scramblers getting scrambled units at their current health though

[Gf!sh]

That's why one would think that BS is OP.

(Graph before nerf)

[CombatEX]

First I would like to say that with the exception of Adorables I think we should wait to see the consequences of the latest update before making any changes.

Scallywags
Bombshell is not OP. Try winning with a bombshell against a good ST Adorables player. Not going to happen. The best way to kill an Adorables player is to overwhelm them with normal units as soon as they get out a mobi. Getting a bombshell and trying to defend when they get a mobi is a losing strategy. Feel free to check the AvS ST replays on OSN. Nearly all the games where a Scallywag manages to take down an Adorable have little or nothing to do with a bombshell.

Feedback
As you said, it is hard to balance Feedback because there is an enormous difference between scrambling one unit vs two units with the same scrambler. If you scramble one unit you usually break even.* Not much of a reward for all the trouble you had to go through (might as well have just made normal units). However, if you scramble two units you gain a massive advantage and will likely be in a position to take the game (I did a post on the math behind this a while back but I couldn't find it =/). It is hard to achieve a good compromise. That being said I'd still like to beta test a buff for feedback where units that are scrambled have more than 1 hp. Not sure what a good amount is. Full HP? 1 HP less than what they had before?

*In terms of wit efficiency. The best part of scrambling a unit is gaining a unit count lead. Good Feedback players make excellent use of this, but apparently it isn't enough to allow a Feedback player to break into the top 10 or even 15.

Veggienauts
Too early to say anything. My instincts tell me that this nerf is perhaps too large, but I've played a few SvV games since the update and at least on Glitch Veggienauts still seem to be viable. As for the suggestion to remove attacking I am strongly against this. I prefer leaving the wide range of potential strategies with the bramble available rather than limiting strategies. I'd like the Veggienauts to be balanced around attacking thorns if possible.

Adorables
It has been fairly clear for many months that since the +1 wit for kill update Adorables have gained an advantage at the highest level of play. Just look at the top players who have either affirmed this fact vocally (like Gavin Wins) or who have switched to Adorables like garcia10000, awpertunity, and Terenceshiu2005. Where have all the top Scallywags players gone? Those who haven't switched to Adorables seem to have given up. For instance, what happened to pokhs? Unfortunately despite all this talk, I don't have any suggestions for how Adorables can be fixed. Alvendor made a proposition a few months back but it didn't seem to really take off. I believe it was removing the ability for the mobi to teleport units which had already moved. This would definitely help, but it would also removing a lot of the strategic potential of the mobi. Anyone have any ideas?

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Though I have grown accustomed to +1 wit for kill and it has opened up more possibilities on each turn, overall I feel it has been harmful for game balance. I believe it was Alvendor who said that AvS was balanced prior to the update and I wholeheartedly agree. There were many Adorables and Scallywags at the top before +1 per kill and the top two spots were held by Feedback players (hard to believe these days). All of the teams were competitive. I'm not proposing we go back to the old system, but it clearly introduced some unforeseen problems that we now need to address.

[Piko]

Imo Scrambler should have got 4mp and no wit/convert. It wouldn't make him really OP, but far easier to use for newbies.

[TheGreatAnt]

(03-29-2013 07:16 AM)Piko Wrote:  Imo Scrambler should have got 4mp and no wit/convert. It wouldn't make him really OP, but far easier to use for newbies.

But we also need to consider the balance at the top of the leader board.