Ordered Titan Divisions

[calmon]

I want to suggest giving the Titan Divisions a concrete order to better compare the Titans and increase motivation getting higher.

First it may need some tweeks regarding the titan promotion and the points earned until this point. I'm not sure it is a good idea to keep all points from previous league because it seems far easier to earn this points in lower leagues. But maybe the system reflect this already in a way and its good like it is.

The idea itself is simple: Its just a long orderedByPoints-ranking of all titan players but cut into divisions.

So lets say we have 500 Titan players

1st Super Titan Div. 1-100 (<-- Top 100 pointwise of all titan players)
2nd Super Titan Div. 101-200
3rd Super Titan Div. 201-300
4th Super Titan Div. 301-400
5th Super Titan Div. 401-500
(add cool names for each Division but keep the numbers)

I think this increase motivation! In moment like I wrote here about my own division it's not very interesting to view for me.

I would be happy to just have the 1st Div as big challenge to get into/increase in ranks inside if it to complicated to have 2nd/3rd/etc. division.

No changes needed in queue system, titans vs titans like always. Its simple just a change how the titan league and its divs are sorted.

[Kamikaze28]

I welcome your enthusiasm to do more than just play Outwitters and post on the forums occasionally, but I fear your endeavor is a vanity project. Keeping a list like yours current will drive you insane in a matter of days.

The distribution of points we see now is something we could only theorize about during beta because we did not have enough participants to drive the system through its paces (max. 100 due to iOS restrictions). For the time being, the points may be skewed, but OML is most certainly watching this unfold and are preparing changes to address this down the road. For now, league promotions/demotions and matchmaking are more important.

[Fluffysox]

I totally think Harti didn't mention this in like 50 other threads aswell, that DIVISIONS AREN'T MEANT TO SEPARATE SKILL FURTHER THAN LEAGUES DO

Edit: you beat me kamikaze >:o

[calmon]

(07-17-2012 06:55 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  I totally think Harti didn't mention this in like 50 other threads aswell, that DIVISIONS AREN'T MEANT TO SEPARATE SKILL FURTHER THAN LEAGUES DO

Edit: you beat me kamikaze >:o

Well on top of the leagues having something like this is a nice feature. SC2 has it and there is at least no reason to not even considering it.

I suggested '1st Division' instead of 'Top-ofTop-League' just because it makes technically less sense to have another league instead of just a division or like I suggested ordered divisions in titan league (<- only titan, because it makes indeed not much sense in lower leagues).

The main "problem" starts when the difference between the points goes to far away inside the division but the Top has no chance to promote away like the top players can do in other leagues. At this point the division lacks the information/competition/whatever you usually would love to have.

[Harti]

I wouldn't consider the ladder points a problem. One Man Left wants to have similar seasoning around like in SC2, so the ladder points will probably be reset at some point (i.e. every time a new season begins) anyway.

The issue that there are so many people with 1,000+ points around was caused by the system preserving their ladder points when getting promoted. This is also something OML would like to look into so that nobody who just got promoted can instantly be #1 of their new division.


Apart from that I'm happy with the way the divisions are distributed now. Neither do I want to be able to claim "TROLOLOL I'M TEH BEST!!!!11", nor do I want other people to brag around like that. I like that kind of conceiling but that might be just me.

[Kamikaze28]

(07-17-2012 07:34 PM)calmon Wrote:  Well on top of the leagues having something like this is a nice feature. SC2 have it and there is at least no reason to not even considering it.

Comparisons with SC2 are nice for inspirational purposes, but ultimately, you have to realize that SC2 is an entirely different thing than Outwitters in respect to scope:

Code:

.            SC2                  | Outwitters
Platform     Desktop              | Mobile
Seriousness  eSport               | Pasttime
Developers   7:19 min of credits  | 15 sec of credits
Budget       in the millions      | way less than millions

(07-17-2012 07:34 PM)calmon Wrote:  I suggested '1st Division' instead of 'Top-ofTop-League' just because it makes technically less sense to have another league instead of just a division or like I suggested ordered divisions in titan league (<- only titan, because it makes indeed not much sense in lower leagues).

You have to explain the difference between your '1st Division' and a theoretical Mega-Titan League to me other than the number of players that can be in it and the fact that promotion/demotion is solely based on points.

(07-17-2012 07:34 PM)calmon Wrote:  The main "problem" start when the difference between the points goes to far away inside the division but the Top has no chance to promote away like the top players can do in other leagues. At this point the division lacks the information/competition/whatever you usually would love to have.

Once again, this is being watched closely by the devs and will most likely be addressed in the future.

Furthermore, skill rankings in and of itself is a hopeless process. Most importantly, the 'better than'-relation between players is not transitive:
Player A consistently beats Player B; Player B consistently beats Player C.
The conclusion that "Player A consistently beats Player C" is a foolish one to draw. All three players can be of more or less the same skill. To verify or refute the statement, you have to match players A and C against each other multiple times.

To resume once again: divisions are not meant to be ranked with each other and they can't just be mingled and re-labeled based on points. That would bring back the whole monolithic leaderboard issue whose avoidance was one of the goals with the current design.

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(07-17-2012 06:55 PM)Fluffysox Wrote:  Edit: you beat me kamikaze >:o

It's what I do

[calmon]

(07-17-2012 07:51 PM)Harti Wrote:  I wouldn't consider the ladder points a problem. One Man Left wants to have similar seasoning around like in SC2, so the ladder points will probably be reset at some point (i.e. every time a new season begins) anyway.

The issue that there are so many people with 1,000+ points around was caused by the system preserving their ladder points when getting promoted. This is also something OML would like to look into so that nobody who just got promoted can instantly be #1 of their new division.


Apart from that I'm happy with the way the divisions are distributed now. Neither do I want to be able to claim "TROLOLOL I'M TEH BEST!!!!11", nor do I want other people to brag around like that. I like that kind of conceiling but that might be just me.

Isn't the sense of a ladder system to have some competition?

Your "TROLOLOL I'M TEH BEST!!!!11" argument is bit like saying:

"If you disagree with me you get stamped as plays-only-to-be-top-player, so better don't"

I can't argue against this without losing something regardless what I say. You're 1st in your titan division (at least when I saw your div few days ago) if you don't care about more competition, fine! I let it with the arguments I already made.

[Harti]

(07-17-2012 08:02 PM)calmon Wrote:  Your "TROLOLOL I'M TEH BEST!!!!11" argument is bit like saying:

"If you disagree with me you get stamped as plays-only-to-be-top-player, so better don't"

Nah, I don't judge you. It's just... people are overly excited about getting promoted to Super-Titan league and one even began to announce their pride among five different threads so that everybody would notice.

Quote:You're 1st in your titan division (at least when I saw your div few days ago) if you don't care about more competition, fine! I let it with the arguments I already made.

I agree with you on the point that there should be an icing for the cake we already got. But that one should be different from the regular league operation:

- If they invented a 6th tier (league) and you got #1 on there, would you request a 7th?
- The league business is biased as it comes with FTA, ladder point inflation, hidden ratings that don't have to go along with your ladder rank...
- Once more skilled people start playing and fill Super-Titan league, the current Super-Titans will probably get demoted to Master League eventually


I'd suggest special league tournaments for the best players in each division (#1 in CL, #1 in GL, #1-2 in ML, #1-3 in STL), probably with special rulesets and stuff like that.

[ArtNJ]

I dont think Calmon is (in any way shape or form) a troll for wanting to know where he stands. Nor is it impossible that he could provide a vehicle for meaningful rankings; after all, I did that for Hero Academy when the developer chose not too. However, inasmuch as Outwitters does have leagues, and they will eventually start matching you according to your true skill (perhaps sooner rather than later given the recent changes), I dont think there is enough desire to warrant building something like that here.

I think that the best that we will have is tournaments, and I would suggest that someone that wants to put in some effort organize our first asap.

[nivra0]

Agreed on tourneys