Some unexpected ladder shifts may happen over the next few days

[Harti]

(07-14-2012 11:15 PM)Syvan Wrote:  Thanks for the response, is there any way we can get an idea what your intended league distribution is?

The system will always need tweaking here and there, probably have one hiccup or two, so I don't think there will be any stats about league distribution posted officially. Just always play your A-Game and you'll find yourself in the upper leagues in no time


/edit: @ Super-Titan #1: lol, I really put my foot in it didn't I?

[Syvan]

Thanks for the encouragement, Harti

This is why easily accessible leagues would be nice. I don't have a problem with the league placement, I just wanted to ask in a perfect world what ratios they would like to see for each league. It will probably take a while for the algorithm to collect enough data to accurately place everyone. Either way, I'm really enjoying the game, rank or not.

[Samsonbeta]

Woot! Good job with the continual fixes.... I'm guessing the ideal isa 50:50 gZmes count with each battle being a brutal struggle ?

[Glorishears]

I understand players may have been placed higher than you intended. But being demoted after a hard-fought win is still demoralizing and bizarre. Either just do the demotions all at once, not connected to a particular game, or wait for a loss. If you're right that a player is too high, that should happen pretty soon; if they don't lose their rating will rise to match their league soon enough.

[RockinBabyRo]

Demotion or loss of rank on a win is unacceptable - no matter how misplaced the combatant is.

Perhaps you can placate the masses by having a "season" that will end sometime in the future and, with your polished new algorithm, have everyone redo their placement. (And maybe the league winners will get some token for their awesomeness, like a small flag on all their future bases ... or a "lifetime wins" category, or something... you know what I mean.)

I suggest this because in a single loss, I fell from mid-Master to low-Clever (70th). Now, I don't mind having to battle my way back up to where I truly belong, but at this rate of increase (~10 places per win), I could save myself 20+ games by just creating a new GC userID ... and that's *if* I don't lose.......

[Kamikaze28]

(07-16-2012 12:50 AM)RockinBabyRo Wrote:  Demotion or loss of rank on a win is unacceptable - no matter how misplaced the combatant is.

Perhaps you can placate the masses by having a "season" that will end sometime in the future and, with your polished new algorithm, have everyone redo their placement. (And maybe the league winners will get some token for their awesomeness, like a small flag on all their future bases ... or a "lifetime wins" category, or something... you know what I mean.)

I suggest this because in a single loss, I fell from mid-Master to low-Clever (70th). Now, I don't mind having to battle my way back up to where I truly belong, but at this rate of increase (~10 places per win), I could save myself 20+ games by just creating a new GC userID ... and that's *if* I don't lose.......

Promotions and demotions function independently from points (which determine your rank). You don't need to be in the top 10 of your league to be eligible for promotion, you need to win consistently against players from your own league as well as against players from the league above.
Playing will increase the matchmaking systems confidence in your skill rating - so with enough patience you will end up in the league where you belong. Creating a new GC ID will not save your problem, it will start the whole process all over again.

[Harti]

(07-16-2012 12:50 AM)RockinBabyRo Wrote:  Demotion or loss of rank on a win is unacceptable - no matter how misplaced the combatant is.

Perhaps you can placate the masses by having a "season" that will end sometime in the future and, with your polished new algorithm, have everyone redo their placement. (And maybe the league winners will get some token for their awesomeness, like a small flag on all their future bases ... or a "lifetime wins" category, or something... you know what I mean.)

I suggest this because in a single loss, I fell from mid-Master to low-Clever (70th). Now, I don't mind having to battle my way back up to where I truly belong, but at this rate of increase (~10 places per win), I could save myself 20+ games by just creating a new GC userID ... and that's *if* I don't lose.......

I hear your point and can sympathise with you, however this had to be done in order to grant every user appropriate experience: You usually get paired to people among your league because people from your league are suspected to have approximately the same skill rating as you do.
With weaker people around the higher leagues, it gets especially frustrating both for you and them; you don't have much fun playing somebody into the ground within 10 turns and neither do they get a feeling of accomplishment from that.

If bad people got paired to bad people, only one of them would get demoted afterwards (only the one to lose). If bad people got paired to people doing their placements, they would probably win and not get demoted as well. All that would cause these people to stick around even longer.

I've seen that demotion behavior after a win before and found it highly confusing as well, rather considered it a bug than intended behavior. Anyway I'll still defend OML's solution as it's probably the quickest. They could have put all people to make 1 placement match once again but that would have annoyed a lot of guys I think.

A post on why getting demoted upon winning (or promoted upon losing) isn't rubbish

[RockinBabyRo]

Thanks for your responses. I usually don't post because I know you guys know all the fine details so well (Mamma says "you got two ears and one mouth, use them accordingly"). I just have the layperson overview.

SO, I'm going to stop worrying about the color of my shield, and instead the League Points (+/-).

To hammer home your point Kamikaze28 -- after posting, I finished a game and jumped back up a league. I guess I was thinking "... 100 ppl per league, I lost almost 200 places, then regained another hundred." But that's just not the case.

Thanks again.

[Bren92787]

I really feel some more transparency is needed about how the league system works.

I am absolutely loving Outwitters--I think it might be the most exciting game I've played on iOS since the app store first opened. But the leagues are frustrating, and I think part of this is because there's something happening behind the scenes that doesn't make sense.

The game suggests, in the help section, that you have a skill rating--which is calculated behind the scenes and is not user-visible. This is the purported explanation I've seen Harti reference more than once for why sometimes users are seeing demotions after winning a game.

I definitely think that the system should be set to NEVER demote a player after a win. If a course correction is necessary, then a loss WILL happen, and soon--so the system should wait for the loss to do it. This is demoralizing.

I got demoted twice, once after a win, and I've wound up in Gifted now, where I'm winning about 7/8 games. I've gotten better since getting there--I've won like 7 games straight today, climbed the ladder in my league, but every game I hold my breath hoping for a promotion. What do I have to do to get promoted? The fact that there's no clear pathway to promotion, and yet demotions can happen even when you win, is really punitive.

It's also concerning, though, because I'm suspicious of the skill rating. This may not be true, but it SOUNDS as if the game is evaluating and grading the moves that I make. My knowledge of how AI works is pretty limited, but I'd be amazed if the system is able to actually interpret why I let a certain unit be killed to lure a player in a certain direction, or to interpret the delicate human nuance of me moving my units to shield other units. If there IS a behind-the-scenes point system evaluating my performance and deciding when I'm ready to move on, I think players--especially dedicated players reading this board and supporting the developers--have a reasonable entitlement to some basic information about what kinds of things impress this system besides just winning. Of course, the risk with this information is then a certain play style might be more encouraged to impress the system, but it seems as if this is already in place and its possible to win game after game in a way that the skill rating doesn't understand and looks down upon.

[brayton]

(07-16-2012 12:50 AM)RockinBabyRo Wrote:  Demotion or loss of rank on a win is unacceptable - no matter how misplaced the combatant is.

Perhaps you can placate the masses by having a "season" that will end sometime in the future and, with your polished new algorithm, have everyone redo their placement. (And maybe the league winners will get some token for their awesomeness, like a small flag on all their future bases ... or a "lifetime wins" category, or something... you know what I mean.)

I suggest this because in a single loss, I fell from mid-Master to low-Clever (70th). Now, I don't mind having to battle my way back up to where I truly belong, but at this rate of increase (~10 places per win), I could save myself 20+ games by just creating a new GC userID ... and that's *if* I don't lose.......

i was 28 in "tiny claws" in master, lost to a clever and fell to 60 in "slow stick" in clever. i know that i will eventually get back to there if i can play that well, but do i have to play heeps of games to get promoted, when some casual players dont play for ages. i cannot even play the game for an hour or 2 because i have to wait on the other player. i think all is fine if there is a"real time match" that 2 players battle on 2 maps, going first and second. same with 4 plaYER. otherwise i will fall while some play real time matches waiting for there reply
i dont intend to sound nasty or ungrateful, its just you cannot here the tone in my voice.

---

i do think seasons of games would be great, 2 or 4 a year. i do think points should be temporary, because otherwise it can be just how many games you played. 500 points is the top in clever league, with second being 200. and a star rating(or wits) for the amount of points over time. under 100 points equals one wit(or star rating), 100-200 equals 2, 200-400 equals 3, 400-600 equals 4, 600-1000 equals 5. because i have 90 points, while others have 100s although it is just time based AND winning. a point leaderboard would be good.