Bump these teams to SuperTitan please!!!

[alexjiang1]

(02-18-2013 03:41 PM)connor34911 Wrote:  

(02-18-2013 03:33 PM)amoffett Wrote:  

(02-18-2013 02:18 PM)connor34911 Wrote:  

(02-18-2013 02:04 PM)amoffett Wrote:  

(02-18-2013 02:03 PM)connor34911 Wrote:  Yeah but it's a little weird that only 2 teams fall into this category.

That's because only two teams right now are that good. There's not a set number of supertitans, it's a measure of skill.

That logic doesn't make sense. It goes by hidden skill. Teams at the top cant get better if they're playing against other teams with the same hidden skill.

Maybe I'm not being clear enough. "It goes by hidden skill". Yes, it does. And their "hidden skill" is higher than yours. Why should these other teams be supertitans just because they feel there arent enough of them. If there's a lack of supertitans, its because there's a lack of truly elite 2v2 players, not because of an error with the promotion system.

Im not saying "my" 2v2 team should be ranked as a supertitan. I dont think your logic is right. If everyone's hidden skill is low how do you improve your hidden skill? Doesnt it go up as you beat people, particularly people better than you? If you are in the top 10-20 players there arent to many teams better than you.

Like I said, consistently beat those guys, have a killer ratio, then you'll* be up there. It does take time, lots of wins, minimal losses.

*not just referring to your team, but used as a general term

[Mr.Banger]

(02-18-2013 03:41 PM)connor34911 Wrote:  

(02-18-2013 03:33 PM)amoffett Wrote:  

(02-18-2013 02:18 PM)connor34911 Wrote:  

(02-18-2013 02:04 PM)amoffett Wrote:  

(02-18-2013 02:03 PM)connor34911 Wrote:  Yeah but it's a little weird that only 2 teams fall into this category.

That's because only two teams right now are that good. There's not a set number of supertitans, it's a measure of skill.

That logic doesn't make sense. It goes by hidden skill. Teams at the top cant get better if they're playing against other teams with the same hidden skill.

Maybe I'm not being clear enough. "It goes by hidden skill". Yes, it does. And their "hidden skill" is higher than yours. Why should these other teams be supertitans just because they feel there arent enough of them. If there's a lack of supertitans, its because there's a lack of truly elite 2v2 players, not because of an error with the promotion system.

Im not saying "my" 2v2 team should be ranked as a supertitan. I dont think your logic is right. If everyone's hidden skill is low how do you improve your hidden skill? Doesnt it go up as you beat people, particularly people better than you? If you are in the top 10-20 players there arent to many teams better than you.

It's possible. We became ST by grinding out victories as masters no? As stated in another thread, 44 wins with 2-3 losses was enough to be a supertitan in 1v1. We were 35-1 or so to become 2v2 ST, and that's playing with people with an arguably lower hidden skill then us. Is the system really broken?

[alexjiang1]

@WF, you might be a notch below them not because you lose to them, it's because once you lose to them, you win more against others pushing you back up there, so you're caught in this "no mans land". But if you continue beating others and beat Gurleyman and Krogoth, you'll be out of the no mans land, if you can't beat them consistently or at least have a .500 record, then Im sorry if this is coming out harsh but you aren't good enough for it.
The system doesn't match you based on your record against them, it matches by hidden skill, so if you lose to them 100/100 but beat others say 200/200 then you'll still get matched with them

[worldfamous]

(02-18-2013 04:07 PM)alexjiang1 Wrote:  @WF, you might be a notch below them not because you lose to them, it's because once you lose to them, you win more against others pushing you back up there, so you're caught in this "no mans land". But if you continue beating others and beat Gurleyman and Krogoth, you'll be out of the no mans land, if you can't beat them consistently or at least have a .500 record, then Im sorry if this is coming out harsh but you aren't good enough for it.
The system doesn't match you based on your record against them, it matches by hidden skill, so if you lose to them 100/100 but beat others say 200/200 then you'll still get matched with them

I surrender. We'll have to agree to disagree. Just trust me when I say we've met all of your criteria with the exception of beating them 50% (it's more like 40%). If there were 50 ST teams and they were at the bottom, I'd be cool with it. That's not the case and I'm not cool with it.

[GreatGonzales]

(02-18-2013 03:33 PM)amoffett Wrote:  Maybe I'm not being clear enough. "It goes by hidden skill". Yes, it does. And their "hidden skill" is higher than yours. Why should these other teams be supertitans just because they feel there arent enough of them. If there's a lack of supertitans, its because there's a lack of truly elite 2v2 players, not because of an error with the promotion system.

Ok let's address this. This is important.

You are right that there are two possibilities:

1. The system is appropriately discerning, and there merely aren't more than 2 sufficiently talented teams.
2. The system is not appropriately discerning, and there are teams who should qualify for ST.

Lets discuss what is meant by "appropriately" discerning. First, though, it's worth noting that the whole promotion system is a black box - that is, no one knows exactly how it works except for OML. Given this, amoffett, you seem a bit too confident here that scenario 1 is what's going on. Anyway, what is "appropriate" for super-Titan promotion, I think, is dependent upon 2 factors: 1. The skill of the team (as known via win/loss indicator), 2. The population of players. You are only considering 1 here.

It's been theorized that supertitans, at least for 1v1, comprise the top .1% of players. I am guessing that this is the problem; OML applied the same model for 2v2. If the current promotion system is working, that means that there are 2000 unique teams. Not sure how I feel about that number, might be about right...could also be very low.

In any case, though, this is the crux of the issue - the whole point of having leagues in a game such as this is to divide the player base into meaningful groups. What may work for 1v1 does not work as well for 2v2, clearly. A league with only 2 teams in it has very little utility. Suppose for the moment that there are only 2000 teams. Does it really make sense to limit a league to 2 teams? What the hell is the point of having the league, then? Leagues are supposed to make league play exciting and competitive. The current situation does neither of these things.

[worldfamous]

(02-18-2013 05:08 PM)GreatGonzales Wrote:  

(02-18-2013 03:33 PM)amoffett Wrote:  Maybe I'm not being clear enough. "It goes by hidden skill". Yes, it does. And their "hidden skill" is higher than yours. Why should these other teams be supertitans just because they feel there arent enough of them. If there's a lack of supertitans, its because there's a lack of truly elite 2v2 players, not because of an error with the promotion system.

Ok let's address this. This is important.

You are right that there are two possibilities:

1. The system is appropriately discerning, and there merely aren't more than 2 sufficiently talented teams.
2. The system is not appropriately discerning, and there are teams who should qualify for ST.

Lets discuss what is meant by "appropriately" discerning. First, though, it's worth noting that the whole promotion system is a black box - that is, no one knows exactly how it works except for OML. Given this, amoffett, you seem a bit too confident here that scenario 1 is what's going on. Anyway, what is "appropriate" for super-Titan promotion, I think, is dependent upon 2 factors: 1. The skill of the team (as known via win/loss indicator), 2. The population of players. You are only considering 1 here.

It's been theorized that supertitans, at least for 1v1, comprise the top .1% of players. I am guessing that this is the problem; OML applied the same model for 2v2. If the current promotion system is working, that means that there are 2000 unique teams. Not sure how I feel about that number, might be about right...could also be very low.

In any case, though, this is the crux of the issue - the whole point of having leagues in a game such as this is to divide the player base into meaningful groups. What may work for 1v1 does not work as well for 2v2, clearly. A league with only 2 teams in it has very little utility. Suppose for the moment that there are only 2000 teams. Does it really make sense to limit a league to 2 teams? What the hell is the point of having the league, then? Leagues are supposed to make league play exciting and competitive. The current situation does neither of these things.

^^ What he said! You are a smarter man than I. Will you accept the position as my spokesperson?

[Mr.Banger]

(02-18-2013 05:00 PM)worldfamous Wrote:  

(02-18-2013 04:07 PM)alexjiang1 Wrote:  @WF, you might be a notch below them not because you lose to them, it's because once you lose to them, you win more against others pushing you back up there, so you're caught in this "no mans land". But if you continue beating others and beat Gurleyman and Krogoth, you'll be out of the no mans land, if you can't beat them consistently or at least have a .500 record, then Im sorry if this is coming out harsh but you aren't good enough for it.
The system doesn't match you based on your record against them, it matches by hidden skill, so if you lose to them 100/100 but beat others say 200/200 then you'll still get matched with them

I surrender. We'll have to agree to disagree. Just trust me when I say we've met all of your criteria with the exception of beating them 50% (it's more like 40%). If there were 50 ST teams and they were at the bottom, I'd be cool with it. That's not the case and I'm not cool with it.

And this points back to no 2v2 rankings, for all we know, they could be fringe STs.

---

(02-18-2013 05:08 PM)GreatGonzales Wrote:  

(02-18-2013 03:33 PM)amoffett Wrote:  Maybe I'm not being clear enough. "It goes by hidden skill". Yes, it does. And their "hidden skill" is higher than yours. Why should these other teams be supertitans just because they feel there arent enough of them. If there's a lack of supertitans, its because there's a lack of truly elite 2v2 players, not because of an error with the promotion system.

Ok let's address this. This is important.

You are right that there are two possibilities:

1. The system is appropriately discerning, and there merely aren't more than 2 sufficiently talented teams.
2. The system is not appropriately discerning, and there are teams who should qualify for ST.

Lets discuss what is meant by "appropriately" discerning. First, though, it's worth noting that the whole promotion system is a black box - that is, no one knows exactly how it works except for OML. Given this, amoffett, you seem a bit too confident here that scenario 1 is what's going on. Anyway, what is "appropriate" for super-Titan promotion, I think, is dependent upon 2 factors: 1. The skill of the team (as known via win/loss indicator), 2. The population of players. You are only considering 1 here.

It's been theorized that supertitans, at least for 1v1, comprise the top .1% of players. I am guessing that this is the problem; OML applied the same model for 2v2. If the current promotion system is working, that means that there are 2000 unique teams. Not sure how I feel about that number, might be about right...could also be very low.

In any case, though, this is the crux of the issue - the whole point of having leagues in a game such as this is to divide the player base into meaningful groups. What may work for 1v1 does not work as well for 2v2, clearly. A league with only 2 teams in it has very little utility. Suppose for the moment that there are only 2000 teams. Does it really make sense to limit a league to 2 teams? What the hell is the point of having the league, then? Leagues are supposed to make league play exciting and competitive. The current situation does neither of these things.

GG are you sure it's only the top .1%? I don't think there is any sort of percentile they're going by, but rather your hidden skill past a certain threshold. And like you said, dividing into meaningful groups, I'll use a comparison here. Lets pretend everyone is a bird, with say hummingbirds at the bottom, then sparrows, ravens, I don't know, vultures, then eagles representing the ST. As of right now, there's 2 "eagles", would you put the vultures in an arena with eagles, knowing the eagle will win the majority of the time? No right? Of course, this is not a 100% accurate comparison but hopefully it makes sense.

[GreatGonzales]

Alexjiang1/mr. Banger, I really have to disagree with you guys that the status quo is acceptable. 7 months is long enough for a population of players to define its elite. I reject the notion that there simply aren't enough good teams who deserve the highest honor of supertitan - the population of players has settled, and there isn't a large skill difference as far as I can tell.

This is the point: the current system is set up in such a way that the number of players promoted to super Titan is too few. 2 teams in a league has very little utility, and begs the question of why we bother to have the league at all. As I just wrote above, the point of having a league system is to promote excitement and competition. What we have now are a bunch of high level teams playing each other over and over and not being able to make it into the top league because the threshold is too restricting.

Do I think I deserve to be supertitan? Maybe, maybe not. My main concern is that the current system has little utility. It would behoove OML to change the threshold for promotion so that it is more In line with the realities of high level 2v2 play.

[Mr.Banger]

(02-18-2013 05:19 PM)GreatGonzales Wrote:  Alexjiang1/mr. Banger, I really have to disagree with you guys that the status quo is acceptable. 7 months is long enough for a population of players to define its elite. I reject the notion that there simply aren't enough good teams who deserve the highest honor of supertitan - the population of players has settled, and there isn't a large skill difference as far as I can tell.

This is the point: the current system is set up in such a way that the number of players promoted to super Titan is too few. 2 teams in a league has very little utility, and begs the question of why we bother to have the league at all. As I just wrote above, the point of having a league system is to promote excitement and competition. What we have now are a bunch of high level teams playing each other over and over and not being able to make it into the top league because the threshold is too restricting.

Do I think I deserve to be supertitan? Maybe, maybe not. My main concern is that the urgent system has little utility. It would behoove OML to change the threshold for promotion so that it is more I. Line with the realities of high level 2v2 play.

Yes I agree, 2 ST is not very many, but could it be possible that the hidden skill level of the masters isn't high enough? Like i mentioned, it was previously stated that going around 44-2 is enough to be a 1v1 ST, we went 35-1 and became an ST, there's not that big of a difference right? But imo, I always thought leagues were to determine skill level...

[Gf!sh]

Guys, i have the solution: top lists for 2v2. Solves everything.