How much do you calculate?

[EkoFox]

(02-03-2013 04:26 AM)Erenan Wrote:  I write detailed reports with graphs and charts about every game I play. As I go, I write on my iPad's screen with a felt tip pen and buy a new iPad for each turn, so that I have a physical record of my progress.

You made me laugh so hard with this

[Ja Karta]

(02-03-2013 06:54 AM)ElPared Wrote:  Outwitters is supposed to be designed for the casual gamer, and casual gamers don't want to have to take notes to figure out where enemies might be.

Very True.
Casual players (and non-casual) measure reward by time put in. If you want to play 10 games and feel like you're penalized for not watching and taking notes it's discouraging. Certainly not rewarding. (I saw this as someone who is a neuroscientist by training.)


2 Issues:
1) Confusion
2) Implementation


re: 1) Make it an OPTION. You can keep the normal replays. It's actually smart for first time players. But most people who play much will get into the game for tactics. Hence you want to make it easy to play (rather than watch) the game and hence the option for LKP (Last Known Position).
I would recommend a tool tip that pops up after the 15th game or so that mentions the option; so people are aware of the option, but not overwhelmed by it when first learning the game.

re: 2) Implementation is actually relatively trivial from a programming and design standpoint. (Changing a large program is never entirely trivial, but this isn't bad.)
From a programming standpoint you just keep track of last seen position of units in FoW and their current state at the time (whether they had moved.) Also same for spawns (state, not location obviously )

From a design standpoint all you do is a grey overlay (or other darkned overlay/background) on squares in FoW. You then show last known positions of units and spawn along with their state (whether they had moved or not). Bam. That's it.

It would look just like an OSN with regard to style, with the addition of darkned/non-darkened units indicating whether they had moved when you last saw them (the system that is already in use). The only thing not covered by this is barrier spawning and parentage.
Ignore it. That's fine. People can always watch the replay in those few instances where that matters.


(To reply to someone's question about e.g. a Mobi could move a unit after it was in the FoW. Yes. Of course. It's a display of information at your disposal. Not of the enemy unit positions, per se.)

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(02-03-2013 07:01 AM)TheGoldenGriffin Wrote:  This game will get complicated if you add too much stuff. It isn't that hard to watch a replay of 1 turn.

Please don't take offense if I suggest that you're young. No offense meant.
A large percentage of gamers are older. If it takes me 1 minute to watch replays for 15 turns in a day: that's 15 minutes that I'm anxious about wasting my time. As people get older their time dwindles and the number of ways to spend it expands.

30 turns is half an hour. You'll be hard pressed to get me (and many, many people my age and up [30+]) to sustainably waste half an hour watching replays for very long...

Time efficiency is key to game's success. Even "time wasters" constantly let you interact or engage.

[alexjiang1]

(02-02-2013 01:15 AM)CombatEX Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 02:08 PM)1ucky Wrote:  Just wondering, you know how that weird FOW guy shows up on the top right when your opponent moves in fog? With that info, can you tell how many times he's moved?

You can't tell how many times, but the fact that you can tell a move was made at all can be useful. For example in cases where you've seen all his units move but then that icon appears, you can infer a unit was spawned. Or if you know he spawned a unit and moved his units, then you can tell a medic healed, and so on.

Not always is the thing, that icon gets pretty tricky. For example, I played a league game and was able to see his moves that he made in my range of vision. But at the very end of his turn, a sneaky man icon appeared (everything else that turn he did, I was able to see). I assumed he made a runner but I didn't know, but when I went to rewatch it after I finished the game, it appeared that on the end of that turn, he didn't even make a move! Yet for some reason the sneaky man showed (this has actually happened several times already)

[1ucky]

(02-03-2013 10:42 AM)alexjiang1 Wrote:  

(02-02-2013 01:15 AM)CombatEX Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 02:08 PM)1ucky Wrote:  Just wondering, you know how that weird FOW guy shows up on the top right when your opponent moves in fog? With that info, can you tell how many times he's moved?

You can't tell how many times, but the fact that you can tell a move was made at all can be useful. For example in cases where you've seen all his units move but then that icon appears, you can infer a unit was spawned. Or if you know he spawned a unit and moved his units, then you can tell a medic healed, and so on.

Not always is the thing, that icon gets pretty tricky. For example, I played a league game and was able to see his moves that he made in my range of vision. But at the very end of his turn, a sneaky man icon appeared (everything else that turn he did, I was able to see). I assumed he made a runner but I didn't know, but when I went to rewatch it after I finished the game, it appeared that on the end of that turn, he didn't even make a move! Yet for some reason the sneaky man showed (this has actually happened several times already)

If this is so, I wish they would just get rid of the thing and save some time xp
I had always thought the person was doing something when the guy appeared.

[ImperialSun]

(02-03-2013 10:51 AM)1ucky Wrote:  

(02-03-2013 10:42 AM)alexjiang1 Wrote:  

(02-02-2013 01:15 AM)CombatEX Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 02:08 PM)1ucky Wrote:  Just wondering, you know how that weird FOW guy shows up on the top right when your opponent moves in fog? With that info, can you tell how many times he's moved?

You can't tell how many times, but the fact that you can tell a move was made at all can be useful. For example in cases where you've seen all his units move but then that icon appears, you can infer a unit was spawned. Or if you know he spawned a unit and moved his units, then you can tell a medic healed, and so on.

Not always is the thing, that icon gets pretty tricky. For example, I played a league game and was able to see his moves that he made in my range of vision. But at the very end of his turn, a sneaky man icon appeared (everything else that turn he did, I was able to see). I assumed he made a runner but I didn't know, but when I went to rewatch it after I finished the game, it appeared that on the end of that turn, he didn't even make a move! Yet for some reason the sneaky man showed (this has actually happened several times already)

If this is so, I wish they would just get rid of the thing and save some time xp
I had always thought the person was doing something when the guy appeared.

I don't know. I'm with szei though. Whenever I see that icon it always corresponds with an action. I've never come across a situation like the one alex describes where the symbol pops up but my opponent didn't do anything. That has never happened. Every time it pops up and there is only one action my opponent could have taken in the fog, my opponent did indeed take that action.

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Maybe I'll do some pass and plays to test it, but I'm pretty sure it always works, or I've just been lucky.

[Eijolend]

I usually only try to estimate what my opponent can have and where he has it. I found that counting wits didn't really improve what I know by a large margin. Since you can't be sure about every single wit, you usually arrive at the same conclusion as with estimating anyway - either my opponent has just enough to make that fearsome play, or he is just slightly missing one wit or two.

[1ucky]

Yeah, I agree, which is why I usually go by instinct. If he's used a lot of wits, I can kinda tell if he doesn't have enough to make that scrambler or something.

Unfortunately, I'm wrong sometimes

[Willythewile]

Excuse my being slow-witted, but I have only been able to replay the last turn. How do you replay the game from turn one?

[EkoFox]

There are buttons along the bottom for rewinding turns.

[aaronINdayton]

I like the option in settings that start's as "off." I would add to that a setting for the amount of turns you want ghosts to stay in fog you haven't uncovered. Something like 1 through 10 and then a "don't remove" option also. I would like to see them, but could see it getting bothersome if they never went away, so I might like them to go away if it's been like 5 turns since I had vision there.

But, I'd also like the in game replay system to be as good as OSN, and I don't see that happening either . Maybe if OML gets to a point where they feel the teams are all balanced perfectly and have released all the maps/teams they like, and for some reason don't want to work on another project, they'll upgrade the replay system.