Game balancing

[Alvendor]

I know this subject is already being discussed extensively but I feel quite strongly about it and hence created a new topic for my suggestions.

Current state of the game (according to me):
* In mid to high level play bombshell dominates.
* At the very top several players think mobi is better.
* Scrambler and bramble are much worse than both bombshell and mobi.
* Scrambler and bramble is a fairly equal matchup at high level but scrambler is better in low/mid as it requires less planning.

Suggestions:
Bombshell - reduce max health to 3.
The problem with the bombshell is that it is close to impossible to kill it and come out ahead in wits. With the change a feedback player would need a scrambler in range of a soldier close to the bombshell and a runner to take it out, both would have a chance to come out ahead in that exchange.

Mobi - don't allow moved units to be teleported.
After the wit for kill update mobi hit and run moves are very strong. On a 1 spawn map you can take opponent's runner with your runner and then teleport it back making it wit neutral but taking the unit lead for free. Mobis also have the advantage that with two mobis a new type of moves become possible: move mobi, teleport sniper, kill something, teleport back mobi. So snipers can be put to take out other specials without risking your own special. This nerf would fix this. Killing a bombshell with a sniper will force the the mobi to be in danger.

Scrambler - no need for modification.

Brambler - It can root/unroot in the same turn for free.
This small buff will open up a new set of plays, think "Ninja Brambler" jumping around every turn spawning a thorn or two where it's needed. This together with nerfing bombshell and mobi should give veggies a chance against any race.
Another option has been suggested of allowing thorns to be able to unroot themselves. But there are two drawbacks with that:
1. You loose a lot of complexity. A large part of a skillful bramble player is to think where thorns are useful several turns ahead. If you can remove any thorn, you can mass thorns blindly and don't really need to plan much.
2. It will not keep things balanced against a scrambler. One reason scrambler and brambler are pretty equal is that if the feedback player scramble a thorn thats a thorn he can never remove.

Notice that these changes need to go together to make sense. You can't nerf bombshell without nerfing mobi. Brambler can be buffed in isolation but would not be enough to fix things in my opinion. Thoughts?

[Mag!cGuy]

I totally agree with it, except for mobi. I think it shouldn't be changed, or reduce its health to 1, but teleporting an unit after it attacked is one of the main interest of this special.

[Katastrophe]

I agree with Wicked.

Granted, I'm only in Gifted and I don't see too much proper Mobi use... the few times I have seen it, it hasn't been an issue. I play Veggienauts, by the way. I mean, you're dumping a seven Wit investment into a unit that can't attack. I mean, one Bombshell moved and in place is what, 8 Wits? Adorables would need almost twice as much to kill it and move everything to safety. To me, that seems like a pretty fair trade and I think it would make Adorables sort of on par with Scallywags in the sense that if you allow them to set up the way they want to, you're going to be in for a loooooooot of trouble.

Scrambler I agree is fine.

Bramble, I also agree, needs something but it's so hard to say what that something is. I like your suggestion as that makes it more mobile. I honestly hardly get a chance to use it. I had a few games yesterday where I said to myself "Alright, next turn, I'll make a Bramble" and then they attacked me so I spent my time fighting it off instead. Then again, I've also used it to completely wall off parts of the map... Trollbramble.

Edit: Another possible nerf to Bombshell might just be give it range 2 instead of 3. Right now, it's a sniper with AoE...

[TheQwertiest]

(01-06-2013 12:01 AM)Alvendor Wrote:  I know this subject is already being discussed extensively but I feel quite strongly about it and hence created a new topic for my suggestions.

Current state of the game (according to me):
* In mid to high level play bombshell dominates.
* At the very top several players think mobi is better.
* Scrambler and bramble are much worse than both bombshell and mobi.
* Scrambler and bramble is a fairly equal matchup at high level but scrambler is better in low/mid as it requires less planning.

Suggestions:
Bombshell - reduce max health to 3.
The problem with the bombshell is that it is close to impossible to kill it and come out ahead in wits. With the change a feedback player would need a scrambler in range of a soldier close to the bombshell and a runner to take it out, both would have a chance to come out ahead in that exchange.

Mobi - don't allow moved units to be teleported.
After the wit for kill update mobi hit and run moves are very strong. On a 1 spawn map you can take opponent's runner with your runner and then teleport it back making it wit neutral but taking the unit lead for free. Mobis also have the advantage that with two mobis a new type of moves become possible: move mobi, teleport sniper, kill something, teleport back mobi. So snipers can be put to take out other specials without risking your own special. This nerf would fix this. Killing a bombshell with a sniper will force the the mobi to be in danger.

Scrambler - no need for modification.

Brambler - It can root/unroot in the same turn for free.
This small buff will open up a new set of plays, think "Ninja Brambler" jumping around every turn spawning a thorn or two where it's needed. This together with nerfing bombshell and mobi should give veggies a chance against any race.
Another option has been suggested of allowing thorns to be able to unroot themselves. But there are two drawbacks with that:
1. You loose a lot of complexity. A large part of a skillful bramble player is to think where thorns are useful several turns ahead. If you can remove any thorn, you can mass thorns blindly and don't really need to plan much.
2. It will not keep things balanced against a scrambler. One reason scrambler and brambler are pretty equal is that if the feedback player scramble a thorn thats a thorn he can never remove.

Notice that these changes need to go together to make sense. You can't nerf bombshell without nerfing mobi. Brambler can be buffed in isolation but would not be enough to fix things in my opinion. Thoughts?

i have no problems against pretty much every nerf except the bramble can unroot individual thorns. i also used to think that the thorns needed that feature before but after a few games using bramble against non scallywag teams i could easily find scenarios where having an unroot feature would be OP specially once youve already properly set up your thorns.

a nerf that i would suggest to make veggienauts even up against scallywags would be if a bombshell directly attacks a thorn, there would be no splash to the surrounding units.

[BuzzleBee123]

It's going to be interesting what OML comes up with for the Veggienauts buff because most of the ideas that we have is for a) a specific race or b) something that would end up being OP.

[garcia1000]

Alvendors suggestions are worth considering even if you disagree with some of the specifics

[Harti]

Here are my thoughts:

(01-06-2013 12:01 AM)Alvendor Wrote:  On a 1 spawn map you can take opponent's runner with your runner and then teleport it back making it wit neutral but taking the unit lead for free.

On a 1 spawn map Mobi is quite the dangerous build for yourself. You're getting behind in unit count and if you already lost a unit (or are about to) you're losing the game to 4HP Soldiers. "Cool I got a Mobi but insufficient units!" syndrome. And I don't see an issue with the fact that a player that's able to pull it off should be rewarded accordingly.

Quote:Mobis also have the advantage that with two mobis a new type of moves become possible: move mobi, teleport sniper, kill something, teleport back mobi.

Are you serious?
Not that I haven't done it before but I've played like 700 games altogether and I was able to pull it off in, like, four games, three of which were against players from lower leagues and friendly matches. The other one I utterly lost because I didn't build any other units than Snipers and got overrun. Chances that I build a second active Mobi in a serious game are very close to 0.001%.


I'd really rather adress the 4HP Soldiers issue by not letting Medics boost units to +1 or making Soldiers yet another tradeoff unit at 2 base HP.
Or issues on one-spawn maps where the person to kill 2 units first basically wins the game. Or simply removing predeployed Medics from maps to make up for the Soldier issue.

I personally trust OML's judgment on Special unit balance, and if they claim that it's balanced except for Veggies, it's going to be a Veggies buff only. I agree that Mobi could be nerfed. But we should really wait for the results from the Veggies buff I guess.

[TheQwertiest]

(01-06-2013 01:02 AM)garcia1000 Wrote:  Alvendors suggestions are worth considering even if you disagree with some of the specifics

i think everyones suggestions should be considered. i understand a top player may be able to see the advantages and disadvantages of the different specials but he is also human so he doesnt necessarily see all the angles. it would be great to have the points of view of everyone.

[Alvendor]

I too don't really like removing the possibility to teleport moved units, going crazy with teleports is one of the charms of adorables. But they are just too strong with it. Notice that move/attack/teleport was almost never used until the update so the change would basically take them back to before update strength.

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(01-06-2013 01:17 AM)Harti Wrote:  

Quote:Mobis also have the advantage that with two mobis a new type of moves become possible: move mobi, teleport sniper, kill something, teleport back mobi.

Are you serious?
Not that I haven't done it before but I've played like 700 games altogether and I was able to pull it off in, like, four games, three of which were against players from lower leagues and friendly matches. The other one I utterly lost because I didn't build any other units than Snipers and got overrun. Chances that I build a second active Mobi in a serious game are very close to 0.001%.

Perfectly serious, it would be my default play to go for double mobis on sweetie plain, long nine, and peekaboo vs scallywags. Also see it in light of the bombshell nerf. If it goes down to 3 health, double mobis become even better.

Quote:I personally trust OML's judgment on Special unit balance, and if they claim that it's balanced except for Veggies, it's going to be a Veggies buff only. I agree that Mobi could be nerfed. But we should really wait for the results from the Veggies buff I guess.

Well of course they will be the ones who makes the decision But I hope they look at the data, listens to the existing arguments, and try it themselves. Even if the data says feedback is as good as the other races, I'd put a fair share on money that that is false.

[connor34911]

I think you guys are kind of getting tunnel vision. I agree with nerfing bombshell. But nerfing mobi? You can't just nerfing a unit because some of the TOP FEW players are really good with it. I'm gifted and use adorables, and it's pretty balanced there. If it was nerfed I'd probably have to switch to scally,even if bombshell was nerfed to 3 health.