Nerf the Scallywags!

[joelduque]

Why don't you use Scallywags and then get nerfed? Mostly non-Scallywag users would suggest this.

[Suobiiellee]

The biggest and silliest advantage the Bombshell has is that it is the only unit that can fire into the FOW. Why is that?
Even though the BS can't see a unit it can attack it because the square adjacent to the unit becomes highlighted thus informing controlling player that opposing units are there. This has always made no sense and effectively allows a single centrally placed BS to control smaller maps.
I have to admit I did sigh when game of the week was a Scallywag win.

[=) Random Task (=]

(10-30-2012 07:22 PM)joelduque Wrote:  

(10-30-2012 05:28 PM)TheQwertiest Wrote:  i support the nerfing of the bombshells movement cause the current movement makes it too easy to get into position

If ever this gets implemented, I think it should be able to attack the same turn it gets into shelled mode.
How about turning friendly fire for the splash on?

Hits to own units by the bombshell splash is also a good suggestion. Then the other values could stay as they are to keep things balanced.

[CombatEX]

No.

Need More Data

Let OML run the stats for each map and then make a decision. Speculating that bombshell is too good without access to the data isn't good enough to warrant a change. Bringing up the possibility that bombshell is overpowered is fine. Try to get Alex and Adam to run the tests and see if it's true. But proposing changes be made when we don't even know the full picture is jumping the gun.

Knowing more specific data would also aid in making an informed balance change rather than just guessing which nerf would be the best. At present I think friendly fire for splash would be the best, but again, we need more info to properly assess the situation.

Other Points

1. Early/Mid/Late Game
2. Bias and Exaggerated Perception
3. Small Map Balance Concerns

Early/Mid/Late Game
What are we aiming for? If the goal is to get as close to 50-50 as possible in matchups across all maps (impossible, but we can strive for it), there is another important balance issue to address. In the early game, specials are a non-issue. Now how about late game? It may very well be true that Scallywag players are the best in the late game when they can get out many bombshells (again, we have no concrete data that supports this, but for the sake of argument we'll assume this is the case). Now how about the mid game? Again, there isn't enough data, but perhaps Adorable or Feedback players have the advantage here. I wouldn't be surprised because putting a bombshell into siege mode is a fairly big investment. In the mid game when you can only have one, you run into some trouble if your opponent attacks a different side of the map because if you want to reposition the bombshell you have to spend around half your income for a turn. Not to mention, you can't even use the bombshell the turn you reposition it. So, the point is, yes, you're probably right that Scallywags have an advantage in the late game if they are allowed to get out a lot of bombshells, but there is also a good chance they are disadvantaged in the mid game (not saying either of these are necessarily true, but just something to consider). Overall though, the balance could be near 50/50. This is a lot like Starcraft 2. In Protoss vs Terran matchup, Protoss has a huge advantage in the late game. Does that mean Protoss is overpowered? No, because they struggle against Terran in the early-mid game. Overall the balance at the pro level is approximately 50-50 (for those of you who doubt this, go to sc2statistics at twitter). So what does Protoss try to do? They try to survive/turtle to the late game where they will overcome their disadvantage and defeat the Terran player. In Outwitters terms you can see it as Scallywags turtling to reach the point where they have an advantage over the other teams.

I hate to repeat myself over and over but I find that often times it's easy to misinterpret things on the internet, so just to reiterate, I'm not saying that Scallywags are necessarily disadvantaged in the mid-game, but it's something to consider. Bottom line: we need more data.

Bias and Exaggerated Perception
I would say that Scallywags are the most straightforward to use, and as a result they could seem too good. You hinted this in your post though you didn't directly say it. You voiced your opinion that the Adorables player did an interesting strategy, but all the Scallywags player did was put down some bombshells. I understand the resentment that an Adorables player can feel when in this scenario. That player may fell like s/he was more strategic because the Adorables are less straightforward, but still lost. This can lend to bias against the 'less skillful' Scallywag play and could lead to a potentially false perception that the bombshell is too good. On a side note, the fact that the free entry team is arguably the simplest makes it a good stepping stone for new players.

Small Map Balance Concerns
Now the following is just speculation, but if a problem exists, it's likely due to having small maps. You can think of it in terms of Starcraft 2. When the game first came out, it was pretty clear that Terran was too good because many of the maps were either very small or had close spawn positions enabled. As a result, Terran players could siege tank push a Zerg player very easily. You can think of this as a Scallywags (Terran) player pushing across a map with bombshells (functionally equivalent to siege tanks). As with Terran and their huge advantage on small maps or close spawns in the early days of Starcraft 2, there could very well be a balance problem regarding Scallywags on small maps in Outwitters. Blizzard realized this issue and now the 1v1 maps have gotten much larger and close spawn positions on the medium sized maps are disabled. I know that many players like small maps as it increases diversity in conjunction with the larger ones, but at the same time it's quite possible that the bombshell is simply too good on these maps even if it is not inherently imbalanced (on larger maps). Perhaps the best course of action would be to remove the small maps in favor of larger ones in the Ranked Ladder. We could keep the small maps for friendly matches just as they are kept in Starcraft 2 for custom games, but for ranked play we should strive for the most balanced map pool. That being said, we should wait for proper matchup statistics across the different maps to see if it really is true that the bombshell is primarily better on small maps or if they are better across the board and warrant an overall balance change. It's also possible that both is true and that small maps should be phased out in addition to nerfing the bombshell. Again, more data is required.

[Alvendor]

I've been playing around with a strategy that could make adorables stronger than scullywags late game. But take it with a grain of salt as I don't have too much experience with it yet.

Make a mobi about the same time he makes a bombshell. Be just aggressive enough so you can take it out if he puts it too far forward.

So he is forced to put it defensively close to his base. Now comes a phase when you build up armies. Pump one soldier per turn and try to save up wits. Make sure he can only splash one unit per bombshell attack. Use your mobi to get your soldiers in good position. If you can, pick off easy targets with mobi + sniper.

About the same time as he gets a second bombshell you get your second mobi. Now this will be your bombshell hit squad:
2 mobis
1 runner
1 unboosted sniper

You will need something like 10-15 wits before launching and attack.

1. You should be fairly sure of the positions of the bombshells.
2. Attack with your soldiers to free up one tile next to his bombshell.
3. Attack bombshell with runner
4. Move mobi and teleport sniper in range of bombshell and kill it.
5. Teleport back your mobi to safety

Congrats you just took out a bombshell without loosing a special unit yourself!

[LoachNZ]

Only reason I play scallywag is fIr the bombs they are op

[daHsu]

(10-31-2012 03:26 AM)CombatEX Wrote:  No.

Need More Data

Let OML run the stats for each map and then make a decision. Speculating that bombshell is too good without access to the data isn't good enough to warrant a change. Bringing up the possibility that bombshell is overpowered is fine. Try to get Alex and Adam to run the tests and see if it's true. But proposing changes be made when we don't even know the full picture is jumping the gun.

Knowing more specific data would also aid in making an informed balance change rather than just guessing which nerf would be the best. At present I think friendly fire for splash would be the best, but again, we need more info to properly assess the situation.

Other Points

1. Early/Mid/Late Game
2. Bias and Exaggerated Perception
3. Small Map Balance Concerns

Early/Mid/Late Game
What are we aiming for? If the goal is to get as close to 50-50 as possible in matchups across all maps (impossible, but we can strive for it), there is another important balance issue to address. In the early game, specials are a non-issue. Now how about late game? It may very well be true that Scallywag players are the best in the late game when they can get out many bombshells (again, we have no concrete data that supports this, but for the sake of argument we'll assume this is the case). Now how about the mid game? Again, there isn't enough data, but perhaps Adorable or Feedback players have the advantage here. I wouldn't be surprised because putting a bombshell into siege mode is a fairly big investment. In the mid game when you can only have one, you run into some trouble if your opponent attacks a different side of the map because if you want to reposition the bombshell you have to spend around half your income for a turn. Not to mention, you can't even use the bombshell the turn you reposition it. So, the point is, yes, you're probably right that Scallywags have an advantage in the late game if they are allowed to get out a lot of bombshells, but there is also a good chance they are disadvantaged in the mid game (not saying either of these are necessarily true, but just something to consider). Overall though, the balance could be near 50/50. This is a lot like Starcraft 2. In Protoss vs Terran matchup, Protoss has a huge advantage in the late game. Does that mean Protoss is overpowered? No, because they struggle against Terran in the early-mid game. Overall the balance at the pro level is approximately 50-50 (for those of you who doubt this, go to sc2statistics at twitter). So what does Protoss try to do? They try to survive/turtle to the late game where they will overcome their disadvantage and defeat the Terran player. In Outwitters terms you can see it as Scallywags turtling to reach the point where they have an advantage over the other teams.

I hate to repeat myself over and over but I find that often times it's easy to misinterpret things on the internet, so just to reiterate, I'm not saying that Scallywags are necessarily disadvantaged in the mid-game, but it's something to consider. Bottom line: we need more data.

Bias and Exaggerated Perception
I would say that Scallywags are the most straightforward to use, and as a result they could seem too good. You hinted this in your post though you didn't directly say it. You voiced your opinion that the Adorables player did an interesting strategy, but all the Scallywags player did was put down some bombshells. I understand the resentment that an Adorables player can feel when in this scenario. That player may fell like s/he was more strategic because the Adorables are less straightforward, but still lost. This can lend to bias against the 'less skillful' Scallywag play and could lead to a potentially false perception that the bombshell is too good. On a side note, the fact that the free entry team is arguably the simplest makes it a good stepping stone for new players.

Small Map Balance Concerns
Now the following is just speculation, but if a problem exists, it's likely due to having small maps. You can think of it in terms of Starcraft 2. When the game first came out, it was pretty clear that Terran was too good because many of the maps were either very small or had close spawn positions enabled. As a result, Terran players could siege tank push a Zerg player very easily. You can think of this as a Scallywags (Terran) player pushing across a map with bombshells (functionally equivalent to siege tanks). As with Terran and their huge advantage on small maps or close spawns in the early days of Starcraft 2, there could very well be a balance problem regarding Scallywags on small maps in Outwitters. Blizzard realized this issue and now the 1v1 maps have gotten much larger and close spawn positions on the medium sized maps are disabled. I know that many players like small maps as it increases diversity in conjunction with the larger ones, but at the same time it's quite possible that the bombshell is simply too good on these maps even if it is not inherently imbalanced (on larger maps). Perhaps the best course of action would be to remove the small maps in favor of larger ones in the Ranked Ladder. We could keep the small maps for friendly matches just as they are kept in Starcraft 2 for custom games, but for ranked play we should strive for the most balanced map pool. That being said, we should wait for proper matchup statistics across the different maps to see if it really is true that the bombshell is primarily better on small maps or if they are better across the board and warrant an overall balance change. It's also possible that both is true and that small maps should be phased out in addition to nerfing the bombshell. Again, more data is required.

Good points... do you happen to be a scallywag fan?

You're right that we do need more data, although a look at the general voice and trends in ST replays shows that bombshells are quite powerful. The problem about BS's is that they are useful in early, mid, AND late game. I have seen turn 2 bombshells that end up becoming a huge threat. Mid game bombshells end up stalling the game and eating up the opponent, while late game is just insane (again, walking bombshells to the other side). The other two specials have a very small niche (i.e. mobis are only really great for rushing/throwing snipers and heavys around; not so sure about scramblers)
On small maps, one or two well placed bombshells will dominate. But actually, the big maps are just as good for bombshells, since the large distance means soldiers are subject to more bombshell fire.

And @Alvendor: i think i'll try that! although I might end up losing my soldiers+sniper? Which is equivalent to a special

[CombatEX]

(10-31-2012 01:09 PM)daHsu Wrote:  Good points... do you happen to be a scallywag fan?

You're right that we do need more data, although a look at the general voice and trends in ST replays shows that bombshells are quite powerful. The problem about BS's is that they are useful in early, mid, AND late game. I have seen turn 2 bombshells that end up becoming a huge threat. Mid game bombshells end up stalling the game and eating up the opponent, while late game is just insane (again, walking bombshells to the other side). The other two specials have a very small niche (i.e. mobis are only really great for rushing/throwing snipers and heavys around; not so sure about scramblers)
On small maps, one or two well placed bombshells will dominate. But actually, the big maps are just as good for bombshells, since the large distance means soldiers are subject to more bombshell fire.

And @Alvendor: i think i'll try that! although I might end up losing my soldiers+sniper? Which is equivalent to a special

Thanks for being open-minded about this. Before I begin, to address your concern about losing your soldiers and sniper, a few things. For one, it's going to be quite expensive for your opponent to cleanup your sniper, two soldiers and a runner. Another point is that when you kill the bombshell, even if your opponent decides to replace it, that's one turn wasted where s/he can't fire with it. As an Adorables player none of your units are restrained like that, but Scallywag players need to spend a whole turn getting into siege mode (maybe even two turns). Since you have mobi, during this time you'll have a window to teleport your units around and attack.

Now to address your comment. I do like the Scallywags, but my favorite team is actually the Feedback. Also, the fact that the two highest ranked players, p1noyboypj and Sir3 use Feedback, not Scallywags, shows that at the highest level Scallywags are not the obvious choice (they could still be the preferred choice, but it's not black-and-white). My intention is not to try to defend the bombshell because I don't want 'my team' to get nerfed, rather, coming from Starcraft 2 I often see players complaining about balance (almost exclusively about how the teams they don't play are OP) and more often than not these claims aren't worth acting on. This brings up another point which I didn't mention above. That is, adapting. Now, sometimes things really are just OP. If you look at Blizzard's patch notes for SC2, you'll see that they have made balance changes here and there over the past few years. However, there has been way more complaining than the changes that have been implemented, and this is because often times the complaints end up being unnecessary. For example, there was a time when Protoss players were extremely vocal about how hard it was to defend against mass mutalisks especially if the game dragged on long enough that the Protoss needed to try to secure a third base. This went on for a long time and in fact, the Protoss vs Zerg matchup statistics heavily favored Zerg for a few months. Eventually the matchup normalized at around 50-50 again. Why? Did Blizzard nerf the mutalisk? Buff the Protoss? Well, no*. Instead, Protoss players learned how to adapt and punish the mass mutalisk zergling playstyle. The point is that even if the Scallywags are favored (and again, we don't know this), it's possible that given time, people will come up with ways to punish Scallywag players who try to turtle through the mid game and spam out bombshells. I don't know if Alvendor's counter strategy is viable and will become mainstream, but you can see that counters like this will continue to be developed by high level players until a suitable one is found. If this does not happen after a long enough period, then something should be done.

*Blizzard actually did add an upgrade that Protoss players could research to deal with mutalisks, but it was too high up the tech tree to obtain reasonably so players never had much success trying to use it for this. In other words, essentially there was no balance change implemented and players had to figure out the counter on their own.


EDIT:

I missed this the first time, but you're sure you think big maps are just as good for bombshells? I find this highly questionable. Maybe on Foundry this is the case because it's relatively easy to lock down all attack paths by holding the middle, but what about Long Nine and Sweetie Plains?

[garcia1000]

I think bombshells are best on Peekaboo. They are not as great on big maps.

[daHsu]

(11-01-2012 10:04 AM)garcia1000 Wrote:  I think bombshells are best on Peekaboo. They are not as great on big maps.

Soo true! I really hate playing against scallywags on this map. They always manage to bring one out and just basically kick my ass.