Giving Up Before You Get An Opponent

SuperDonkey · 03-28-2014, 09:26 AM

(03-28-2014 05:25 AM)Bbobb555 Wrote:
(03-27-2014 10:30 PM)SuperDonkey Wrote:
(03-27-2014 09:01 AM)Bbobb555 Wrote: There is no wit advantage... FTA only exists on Foundry and War Garden.

Now that we're getting more data in OSN, we might be able to make a better determination as to which boards have a nice first-player advantage. I suspect you'll find a lot on 4-wit-point boards since that's where the first player also has the wit advantage.

Don't know how you're analyzing the wit advantage, but since play is asynchronous, I think you have to look at the total wit you have had to spend up to that point compared to your opponent. So on 4-wit-point boards, the totals go: 5, 8, 12, 15, 19, etc. Thus as P1, you have the following surplus/deficit by turn: +5, -3, +4, -3, +4, -3, etc. That means on Turn 5, all things considered, I have 4 more wit to play with than my opponent, while on Turn 6 he has only 3 more wit than I do. This might be slight but I bet it shows up over the course of hundreds of games.

On 2-wit boards it's the opposite though, so it evens out.

This is not true at all! If it were the opposite, P2 would have a wit advantage on 2-wit-point boards, but actually it's even (apart from T1). It goes: 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20... So as P1, your surplus/deficit by turn is: +5, -3, +3, -3, +3, -3, etc. The +5 doesn't bother me because I don't think T1 matters that much insofar as wit advantage goes; however, P1 still has wit parity along with his first-move advantage. All in all, I think P2 still gets the shaft, just not nearly as bad.

Flarp55 · 03-28-2014, 09:28 AM

(03-28-2014 09:26 AM)SuperDonkey Wrote:
(03-28-2014 05:25 AM)Bbobb555 Wrote:
(03-27-2014 10:30 PM)SuperDonkey Wrote:
(03-27-2014 09:01 AM)Bbobb555 Wrote: There is no wit advantage... FTA only exists on Foundry and War Garden.

Now that we're getting more data in OSN, we might be able to make a better determination as to which boards have a nice first-player advantage. I suspect you'll find a lot on 4-wit-point boards since that's where the first player also has the wit advantage.

Don't know how you're analyzing the wit advantage, but since play is asynchronous, I think you have to look at the total wit you have had to spend up to that point compared to your opponent. So on 4-wit-point boards, the totals go: 5, 8, 12, 15, 19, etc. Thus as P1, you have the following surplus/deficit by turn: +5, -3, +4, -3, +4, -3, etc. That means on Turn 5, all things considered, I have 4 more wit to play with than my opponent, while on Turn 6 he has only 3 more wit than I do. This might be slight but I bet it shows up over the course of hundreds of games.

On 2-wit boards it's the opposite though, so it evens out.

This is not true at all! If it were the opposite, P2 would have a wit advantage on 2-wit-point boards, but actually it's even (apart from T1). It goes: 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20... So as P1, your surplus/deficit by turn is: +5, -3, +3, -3, +3, -3, etc. The +5 doesn't bother me because I don't think T1 matters that much insofar as wit advantage goes; however, P1 still has wit parity along with his first-move advantage. All in all, I think P2 still gets the shaft, just not nearly as bad.

oh oops, i made a mistake. you're right. But fta isn't currently a huge problem. Maybe 5/9 would be better.

SuperDonkey · (This post was last modified: 03-28-2014 09:35 AM by SuperDonkey.)

(03-28-2014 06:01 AM)lawtai Wrote:
(03-28-2014 05:25 AM)Bbobb555 Wrote: On 3-wit boards it's the opposite though, so it evens out.

What 3-wit maps?

Hahaha--actually Bbobb555, I was going to suggest that maybe one way of inserting some new life into the game would be to coax the devs into making a 3-wit-point board. Each player has one easily accessible wit point, but there's an odd one smack in the middle of the board. It could make for an interesting game.

I notice that there are 11 boards, with each race having 3 except feedback. I'm sure this has deeply offended most--nay, ALL--serious Outwitters players across the world. It probably wouldn't take that long to grab the existing Feedback tiles and come up with an interesting 3-wit-point board. Right? Yeah!! So who's with me?........ <crickets>

Flarp55 · 03-28-2014, 09:44 AM

(03-28-2014 09:34 AM)SuperDonkey Wrote:
(03-28-2014 06:01 AM)lawtai Wrote:
(03-28-2014 05:25 AM)Bbobb555 Wrote: On 3-wit boards it's the opposite though, so it evens out.

What 3-wit maps?

Hahaha--actually Bbobb555, I was going to suggest that maybe one way of inserting some new life into the game would be to coax the devs into making a 3-wit-point board. Each player has one easily accessible wit point, but there's an odd one smack in the middle of the board. It could make for an interesting game.

I notice that there are 11 boards, with each race having 3 except feedback. I'm sure this has deeply offended most--nay, ALL--serious Outwitters players across the world. It probably wouldn't take that long to grab the existing Feedback tiles and come up with an interesting 3-wit-point board. Right? Yeah!! So who's with me?........ <crickets>

That is actually a really great idea. Though there would be considerable FTA.

SuperDonkey · (This post was last modified: 03-28-2014 09:47 AM by SuperDonkey.)

(03-28-2014 09:44 AM)Bbobb555 Wrote:
(03-28-2014 09:34 AM)SuperDonkey Wrote:
(03-28-2014 06:01 AM)lawtai Wrote:
(03-28-2014 05:25 AM)Bbobb555 Wrote: On 3-wit boards it's the opposite though, so it evens out.

What 3-wit maps?

Hahaha--actually Bbobb555, I was going to suggest that maybe one way of inserting some new life into the game would be to coax the devs into making a 3-wit-point board. Each player has one easily accessible wit point, but there's an odd one smack in the middle of the board. It could make for an interesting game.

I notice that there are 11 boards, with each race having 3 except feedback. I'm sure this has deeply offended most--nay, ALL--serious Outwitters players across the world. It probably wouldn't take that long to grab the existing Feedback tiles and come up with an interesting 3-wit-point board. Right? Yeah!! So who's with me?........ <crickets>

That is actually a really great idea. Though there would be considerable FTA.

Not sure about that; depending on how it was from the wit points, it might not be. We could also make some modifications like giving P2 an extra wit on that board (although that offends the consistency Nazi in me). It would certainly be interesting to whip something up, throw it to the SuperTitans, and watch them beta test it, eh? I'll bring the popcorn.

Necrocat219 · (06-09-2014 02:14 PM)

In regards to FTA as I haven't contributed yet, as said already wit advantage is very small, almost next to nothing, personally it's unnoticable. However, I feel that the only map with a painfully obvious FTA is Glitch, where I feel that the potential advance of a sniper before you as P2 + Lack of half a unit has a much larger impact on that map. Other 1 spawn or 1 'best' spawn maps (Like Skullduggery) I feel have the game progress prolongued, so unless both players follow exact opening sequences FTA isn't very noticable, such as Peekaboo.