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+-- Forum: General (/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: Outwitters (/forumdisplay.php?fid=11)
+--- Thread: YOU Can Help Bring Outwitters Back! (/showthread.php?tid=4015)
RE: YOU Can Help Bring Outwitters Back! - TheGreatErenan - 09-10-2014 05:23 AM
Every time you add a team you increase the number of matchups by a lot more than the last time you added a team. What you really have to worry about is balancing matchups (including with respect to maps), not just the special units in a non-map-specific hypothetical void.
When there were 3 teams and 6 maps, we had 54 matchups (3 mirror matches * 6 maps + 3 non-mirror matches * 6 maps * 2 for turn order). Already, 54 is pretty hard to balance, but somehow it works pretty well.
Now add Veggies and two maps and suddenly you have quite a lot more! 144 actually (4 mirror matches * 8 maps + 6 non-mirror matches * 8 maps * 2 for turn order).
Now add three new maps for 2nd gen map pack and you're up to 176 (4 * 11 + 6 * 11 * 2).
Add three more teams and what have you got? 539 matchups! (7 mirrors * 11 maps + 21 non-mirrors * 11 maps * 2)
Note that this is without adding two new maps per team. If you add the six new maps to go with the new teams, then you're up to 833 matchups (7 * 17 + 21 * 17 * 2). This is really too much.
P.S. I forgot 2v2 because I don't play 2v2, but it should suffice to say that the number of matchups with seven teams would be staggering.
RE: YOU Can Help Bring Outwitters Back! - The Great Habudabi - 09-10-2014 06:13 AM
I'd pay $20 for these 3 races without question. I'll also volunteer right now for any and all beta testing surrounding new specials!
RE: YOU Can Help Bring Outwitters Back! - TheGreatErenan - 09-10-2014 07:04 AM
I want to retract my statement that OML didn't break even with Veggies. I thought they made a statement to that effect, but I can't find any such statement now.
My position with respect to balance remains unchanged.
RE: YOU Can Help Bring Outwitters Back! - amoffett11 - 09-10-2014 07:55 AM
(09-10-2014 07:04 AM)TheGreatErenan Wrote: I want to retract my statement that OML didn't break even with Veggies. I thought they made a statement to that effect, but I can't find any such statement now.
My position with respect to balance remains unchanged.
No, I remember reading that too.
It's not very surprising, I don't know how many hours were spent including them in the game, but most people either had the uber pack already, and so paid nothing for them, or people didn't have the uber pack and still didn't get them. There were probably not many purchases of the Veggies alone
The discussion about balance: every time I read something like "how hard could it be?" "Surely adding just another special unit can't be difficult", or anything along those lines, I just laugh. It's about the difference between juggling 2 balls or juggling 6 of them. It is HARD. Just look at what happened when Veggies was added to the mix: it was a nightmare for a while, and it's still probably not completely balanced.
If I pushed for anything, it would be new maps, not new teams.
RE: YOU Can Help Bring Outwitters Back! - LegacyofEight - 09-10-2014 08:10 AM
I have to agree with everyone that it would be hard, but I'd pay!!
The problem is that no one has the patience for TBS. Too many ppl just play mindless games. I play some mindless games, but I love thinking games more.
RE: YOU Can Help Bring Outwitters Back! - Flarp55 - 09-10-2014 08:26 AM
New races would create many balance issues. This has been discussed in the past and it has been agreed on that it isn't feasible. Even now we have many balance issues, with only 6 possible race matchups to balance, but with 7 teams, you have 21 matchups which is nearly impossible to balance.
A possible alternative is for OW2 to have these three races and one other new race, and discard the current four.
RE: YOU Can Help Bring Outwitters Back! - LegacyofEight - 09-10-2014 10:00 AM
But then....scrambler.....*sniff sniff*.....
DON'T TAKE SCRAMBLER AWAY FROM ME
RE: YOU Can Help Bring Outwitters Back! - P4bloYo0n - 09-10-2014 01:17 PM
I want new teams. I bought the uber pack so I expect to get my money's worth lol
RE: YOU Can Help Bring Outwitters Back! - LegacyofEight - 09-10-2014 02:58 PM
Hey I just played you! Hi there!
RE: YOU Can Help Bring Outwitters Back! - [PETA] Doodat - 09-10-2014 05:35 PM
You did get your money's worth. But yes, OML did not break even with Outwitters, mostly due, I believe, to the balancing issues with the Veggienauts. Adding 3 new teams sounds like a great idea but you'll get a lot of traffic and discontent EVEN IF the specials are balanced.