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+--- Thread: Alex: Proof that FTA is huge and needs addressing now, and how to fix it (/showthread.php?tid=617)
RE: Alex: Proof that FTA is huge and needs addressing now, and how to fix it - garcia1000 - 09-26-2012 12:21 AM
Yeah Hero Academy had a huge backlash when they went from 5 to 3 so I agree that increasing 2P wit to 8 is better.
RE: Alex: Proof that FTA is huge and needs addressing now, and how to fix it - ArtNJ - 09-26-2012 12:31 AM
(09-26-2012 12:21 AM)garcia1000 Wrote: Yeah Hero Academy had a huge backlash when they went from 5 to 3 so I agree that increasing 2P wit to 8 is better.
LOL, what? No one even noticed as it was an optional toggle buried in the settings that most never saw, except for the small minority in the player League -- the folks that asked for it.
Most of the arguments against reducing player 1's starting wits make little sense to me, but addressing them point by point is too much for me, so I'll leave it alone. Suffice it to add my vote in favor of this option.
I think giving player two 3 extra wits on the first turn would *probably* also work, but its harder to be sure of the effects than reducing player 1's starting wits to 3. The benefit player 2 gets from this may be greater on maps with 2 spawns, which would be distortionary, but I'm not sure how much of a big deal this would be.
A compromise solution would be to give P1 -1 and P2 +1 on round 1. That may not completely eliminate the FTA, but it should significantly reduce it without introducing any radical changes.
RE: Alex: Proof that FTA is huge and needs addressing now, and how to fix it - GreatGonzales - 09-26-2012 12:54 AM
(09-26-2012 12:21 AM)garcia1000 Wrote: Yeah Hero Academy had a huge backlash when they went from 5 to 3 so I agree that increasing 2P wit to 8 is better.
What ArtNJ said - plus the limited AP for first turn is optional in Hero Academy. I am not aware of any backlash, especially in the hardcore community - much the opposite.
That said, yeah, I like the idea of beefing up P2 rather than nerfing P1. Makes the game more fun. With limited wits, P1 turns become pretty boring since your options are super limited.
RE: Alex: Proof that FTA is huge and needs addressing now, and how to fix it - Necrocat219 - 09-26-2012 12:59 AM
(09-26-2012 12:54 AM)GreatGonzales Wrote: I like the idea of beefing up P2 rather than nerfing P1. Makes the game more fun. With limited wits, P1 turns become pretty boring since your options are super limited.
Exactly what I think is right too. Bump to make it look more important
RE: Alex: Proof that FTA is huge and needs addressing now, and how to fix it - Harti - 09-26-2012 01:07 AM
3/5 and 5/8 are essentially the same on most maps as explained in the other thread...
The final decision will be up to One Man Left anyway, therefore I don't see the point of discussing that out with "pros and cons". The only "con" for you is that, if they used 5/8, it'll differ from your beloved HA...
The other "con", that "more wits mean instability", is invalid. Either solution, before being introduced, needs to be playtested thoroughly. And since everybody loves fireworks, we'll probably see the 5/8 first in beta. Again, if anything - because OML's got the final ruling on that.
RE: Alex: Proof that FTA is huge and needs addressing now, and how to fix it - GreatGonzales - 09-26-2012 01:24 AM
(09-26-2012 01:07 AM)Harti Wrote: The final decision will be up to One Man Left anyway, therefore I don't see the point of discussing that out with "pros and cons". The only "con" for you is that, if they used 5/8, it'll differ from your beloved HA...
Hey, now.
RE: Alex: Proof that FTA is huge and needs addressing now, and how to fix it - ArtNJ - 09-26-2012 02:17 AM
(09-26-2012 01:07 AM)Harti Wrote: The final decision will be up to One Man Left anyway, therefore I don't see the point of discussing that out with "pros and cons". The only "con" for you is that, if they used 5/8, it'll differ from your beloved HA...
I did not invoke HA as an argument, I merely refuted a factually wrong point made by another.
What I said was that player two can actually use the extra wits on maps with two spawns more easily than the extra wits can be used on maps with one spawn, so the +3 wits for player 2 idea may provide more help to player 2 on some maps rather than others. I dont know how big of a deal this is, maybe it doesnt matter at all, maybe it does, but its an issue to think about and look at in playtesting.
RE: Alex: Proof that FTA is huge and needs addressing now, and how to fix it - Eijolend - 09-26-2012 02:58 AM
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of P2 with 8 wits. This would help with many openings and let you protect your predeployed medic/sniper more easily, because atm if P1 wants to kill of your medic/sniper he usually can with a few runners.
RE: Alex: Proof that FTA is huge and needs addressing now, and how to fix it - GreatGonzales - 09-26-2012 03:07 AM
You know, one thing that hasn't been discussed much is FTA in 2v2. I think conventional wisdom is that in 2v2 FTA is much less of an issue. But it's still not exactly fair to P1/P3 and P2/P4, right? P1 and P3 both get to go twice before P4 can take his second turn.
If we want to give a wit bonus to P2 in 1v1, do we also need to give some sort of bonus to P2/P4 in 2v2? If so, what would that look like? Perhaps 6 wits? Now this gets complicated - do we handle P1/P2 differently than P3/P4?
RE: Alex: Proof that FTA is huge and needs addressing now, and how to fix it - Harti - 09-26-2012 03:30 AM
(09-26-2012 03:07 AM)GreatGonzales Wrote: You know, one thing that hasn't been discussed much is FTA in 2v2.We should talk about this in a new topic, though, as this is completely different.
Last time I closely paid attention to 2v2 (before this game was released), I figured that P1's base was determined randomly and that the turn order was asymmetrical at times. This makes things even worse.
@your other post: haha, sorry. I only meant to tease you because if one HA guy starts arguing, everybody chimes in to tell us how wonderful this or that worked in HA.
HA is still a very different game. No fog, and it's probably more about positioning. In HA it would probably be complete BS to let P1 start with 5 and P2 with 8.
@ArtNJ: Ok, that is a very fair point I didn't yet realize. Thanks for the explanation.