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+--- Thread: OML banking on TTL rather than Outwitters??? (/showthread.php?tid=2090)
RE: OML banking on TTL rather than Outwitters??? - ElPared - 04-15-2013 11:40 AM
the gameplay doesn't have to change for a sequel to work. Splinter Cell 2 had almost no changes from the original, Zombieville 2 basically just had updated graphics. All Mario games play the same, all that changes is the power ups. The list goes on. The point is that fundamentally a sequel almost never changes the core gameplay.
Take Chess. I think 3D Chess (the one with multi-tiered boards) could be considered "Chess 2." Fundamentally it plays the same, but there are new elements added that make it a different game.
Outwitters 2 could be the same principle. Just add new maps and/or teams (possibly in place of some of the current ones), have muli-platform support, and include something else to set it apart. Field hazards would be cool, I think. And maybe different capturable tiles besides just bonus wit spaces. Bam, sequel. Is the game the same at its core? Yes. Would it play much differently than the first? Again, yes.
RE: OML banking on TTL rather than Outwitters??? - Qwerty - 04-15-2013 11:47 AM
But the problem would be only maybe a fraction of who already play Outwitters would get Outwitters two so it would be an even bigger money pit
RE: OML banking on TTL rather than Outwitters??? - ElPared - 04-15-2013 12:02 PM
not if it's marketed properly. You could count on most of the people who played the first also playing the second, especially if you released an update to the first that unlocks in-game content in the second (possibly a GC achievement that unlocks a special team or map for free in Outwitters 2). Besides, Outwitters 1 already has Witters' Digest, so it'd be easy to tell everyone who plays it "hey, we're making a new game, check it out!" or even "Hey, Outwitters 2 is on sale, get it cheap while you can!"
RE: OML banking on TTL rather than Outwitters??? - TheGoldenGriffin - 04-15-2013 12:49 PM
(04-15-2013 11:40 AM)ElPared Wrote: All Mario games play the same, all that changes is the power ups.
New Super Mario Bros. 2 succeeds New Super Mario Bros. and has better graphics and the all new Coin Rush Mode and new enemies and new story line and new levels and Mario Kart 7 succeeds Mario Kart DS and has better graphics to and all new features like driver PoV, assemble your own kart, and you can drive underwater and glide through the skies. Mario Party 9 succeeds Mario Party 8 and has new minigames, boards, characters, bosses, story, and players all travel in one vehicle and the rules are different.
RE: OML banking on TTL rather than Outwitters??? - Kipsie - 04-15-2013 02:53 PM
To be honest, there are a lot of people, who do not like TBS games. I for one find them my least favorite genre, until I found Outwitters!
RE: OML banking on TTL rather than Outwitters??? - ElPared - 04-15-2013 05:19 PM
(04-15-2013 12:49 PM)TheGoldenGriffin Wrote:(04-15-2013 11:40 AM)ElPared Wrote: All Mario games play the same, all that changes is the power ups.
New Super Mario Bros. 2 succeeds New Super Mario Bros. and has better graphics and the all new Coin Rush Mode and new enemies and new story line and new levels and Mario Kart 7 succeeds Mario Kart DS and has better graphics to and all new features like driver PoV, assemble your own kart, and you can drive underwater and glide through the skies. Mario Party 9 succeeds Mario Party 8 and has new minigames, boards, characters, bosses, story, and players all travel in one vehicle and the rules are different.
Ok, fine, the first 3 Mario games were the same.
and New Super Mario Bros. is the same core gameplay even if there are new game modes. You run through a level jumping on things. Mario kart also has the same core gameplay: it's a racing game with wacky items you use to blow up your opponents. Mario Party is similar: All players involved abuse some kind of substance and see who's better at being a dick to their friends while intoxicated and impersonating an italian plumber
RE: OML banking on TTL rather than Outwitters??? - ImperialSun - 04-16-2013 02:38 AM
(04-15-2013 11:40 AM)ElPared Wrote: the gameplay doesn't have to change for a sequel to work. Splinter Cell 2 had almost no changes from the original, Zombieville 2 basically just had updated graphics. All Mario games play the same, all that changes is the power ups. The list goes on. The point is that fundamentally a sequel almost never changes the core gameplay.
Take Chess. I think 3D Chess (the one with multi-tiered boards) could be considered "Chess 2." Fundamentally it plays the same, but there are new elements added that make it a different game.
Outwitters 2 could be the same principle. Just add new maps and/or teams (possibly in place of some of the current ones), have muli-platform support, and include something else to set it apart. Field hazards would be cool, I think. And maybe different capturable tiles besides just bonus wit spaces. Bam, sequel. Is the game the same at its core? Yes. Would it play much differently than the first? Again, yes.
I think you misread my post in a major way. Before I get to that though, let's consider your analogy with Splinter Cell. Games like Splinter Cell with singleplayer campaigns/stories don't need to change gameplay mechanics! The story/mission are different... It's also a bad example for other reasons. For example, Outwitters uses a deliberate art-style which can't really be improved, just changed. 10 years from now, Outwitters will still look good. Splinter Cell on the other hand is a completely different story. The graphics of the original look terrible now. Of course they could be improved in a sequel.
Now to the main point. I said that any changes made in Outwitters 2 could just be done by patching Outwitters. You said add new maps. This can be, and has been, done in a patch. You said add new teams. This can be, and has been, done in a patch. You also said Outwitters 2 could have multiplatform support. This was the primary idea I suggested so of course I'm in favor of it... However, this could be done with the current game too! Or at least was done with Hero Academy. To put it your way, "Bam, redundant sequel". I have to ask, did you even read my post? The main thing they could do is update the graphics as you suggested, but Outwitters is by no means ugly graphically. Like I said earlier, I don't think you could update the graphics. It would be more of a case of changing the graphical style.
To be fair, this could definitely help. Maybe Outwitter's graphical style doesn't match what most TBS fans are looking for. I know that personally while it has grown on me, the only reason I bought the game was after watching my friend play. If I had come across it in the appstore I would probably have given it a pass because it doesn't look like a serious TBS game compared to ones with a futuristic or fantasy theme. The problem is if Outwitters takes a fantasy or futuristic theme in a sequel, it may attract more new players, but it could also disenfranchise the old player base. Honestly I don't think this would be much of an issue as old fans know the game is great already and I don't think would be too turned off by a change in theme. I would like to see a more serious graphical design as I think this would be better in the long run even though I personally I've grown to like the current theme.
I have to ask though, if all they do is change the graphical style and then add or change things they could have just added or updated in the original game like adding maps and teams, would it anger people? I wouldn't care because I know OML sold Outwitters at a loss despite it being a brilliant game. I'd be more than happy to pay for a sequel even if it was redundant. But how about all those people who never visited the forums or have read about OML's financial problems with Outwitters? I can see all the comments already. "basically just some new maps and teams which they already could have patched into the first game! wtf I bought all the teams in the original already and they could have just made this an update in the original!? what a scam"
I make these guys sound like whiny brats, but they wouldn't be far off the mark. Instead OML would have to add things that cannot just be patched in. For example...
1) Single Player campaign. Personally, "meh". But this was also one of the main criticisms of the game and I can imagine this attracting MANY players.
2) AI for skirmish. Again, "meh". It would be hard to make a competent AI and I would rather just play real players. But once more, this was another major criticism. Even a rudimentary AI for new players to get into the game would probably help.
3) Built in Map Editor. YES, PLEASE! This would be great. Especially if OML looks at well received maps by the community and mixes some of these into ranked play each season.
Now that I have thought about it, there are some things OML could add to make a sequel worthwhile without changing the core mechanics (the three points I referred to above for example). Outwitters is in kind of a unique situation since it is such a cheap game though. Simply reskinning and selling it again could work in the case of Outwitters. Though some would see this as a bad gesture on the part of OML. Still, it may be passable whereas it definitely would not be in a game like Splinter Cell. This would mean Splinter Cell 2 would have had the EXACT same campaign and mechanics as Splinter Cell 1 but in a different theme like a fantasy setting. The graphics would still be on the same poor level as the original, just a change in theme... sounds kind of funny actually but not suitable for a full price game.
RE: OML banking on TTL rather than Outwitters??? - ElPared - 04-16-2013 06:29 AM
TL-DR
I don't understand why anyone would be opposed to a sequel. Plenty of games release successful sequels when they could have easily added all of the sequel's content to the original through an update. The chief advantage of an Outwitters 2 being, yes it's the same game, but you charge for it up front, and also for in-game content.
good job jumping on the one bad example I gave, though. I guess that means you agree with the others
RE: OML banking on TTL rather than Outwitters??? - TheGreatErenan - 04-17-2013 02:58 AM
I agree and disagree with all of you.
I want more Outwitters content, but to me it makes little difference in terms of gameplay whether it's in the current game or in a new one. A new one would make more financial sense, so I favor that.
On the other hand, I totally understand what you're saying about not wanting a Chess 2. Outwitters has at its core a set of gameplay mechanics that have been developed and tweaked to get them as good as possible. This set of mechanics constitute an abstract system of rules that make up the game of Outwitters, similar to the rules that make up the game of Chess. We don't need a new product to continue the development of this set of rules.
So then... we have the Chessmaster series, which goes to eleven now. What does each Chessmaster game have to offer that previous games didn't have?
- Support for current video cards to allow for increasingly high-res 3D graphics. Not something Outwitters really needs, in my opinion.
- New tutorials and learning modes. Could this be something Outwitters might benefit from? Seems to me the forums handle this rather well already.
- Better AI? Not sure if they bother to update the AI any longer, but again this is not something that Outwitters could reasonably have given the massive resources necessary to produce it (if it's even computationally possible).
So what would you put in Outwitters 2 that you couldn't just add to Outwitters? I get your point, or I think I do, anyway.
RE: OML banking on TTL rather than Outwitters??? - ElPared - 04-17-2013 03:33 AM
true you could add anything that might end up in a sequel to the original Outwitters we have now. My point is that's never stopped people from making sequels to their games anyways