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+--- Thread: Mobi visibility change (/showthread.php?tid=977)
RE: Mobi visibility change - Harti - 11-29-2012 09:59 AM
(11-29-2012 06:02 AM)wonderpug Wrote: Mobi sucks a fogged unit and spits out into fog
Before: you have no idea this happened
Now: you see Mobi
In this situation, the opponent is gaining knowledge that wasn't available pre-patch. This is what Gonzales is referring to.
Yeah, it seems I've been missing the point completely here. Just trying to defend OML's adapted design/gameplay decisions which are perfectly fine with me (and I do like using the Adorables).
As for Mobi's gender... he's a dude. At least that's what the placeholder spawning sound "Look at me, I'm flowing - doioiooinnnggggg" sounded like. Could very well have been some TV voice (or Adam!!) though.
RE: Mobi visibility change - Necrocat219 - 11-29-2012 10:05 AM
(11-29-2012 07:59 AM)GreatGonzales Wrote: Relatedly: is Mobi a boy or a girl? I assumed boy since I'm sexist, but...
Relatedly? It seems that we're talking about a unit that sucks in other units! XD Yeah... sorry I thought it was funny when I started writing but now it feels immature.
RE: Mobi visibility change - worldfamous - 11-29-2012 12:05 PM
(11-29-2012 05:56 AM)GreatGonzales Wrote:(11-29-2012 05:18 AM)Harti Wrote: Yeah provided you read the update description, it says that Mobi is being displayed purposely.
If I was Alex or Adam, I'd be shaking my head disappointedly now - whatever they do is wrong.
-- Mobi is not being displayed?
=> ERMAGERD MY ERPPERNENT CHEATS!!!!
-- Mobi is being displayed? (so as to fix the former)
=> ERMAGERD MY ERPPERNENT KNERS WHERE IT IS!!!!
As for the Bramble barriers, I wouldn't say it's "unfair". You can merely tell the amount of barriers your opponent's got around. Usually when no action occurs during two consecutive turns, you're already aware of a Bramble being around. I think it's to limit the extent of your jaw dropping when hitting a concrete wall of Bramble's barriers.
I must strongly disagree!
I'm fine with Mobi being visible in the fog of war, provided that the unit he is warping is NOT in the fog of war. We obviously know that there is a Mobi on the board when a unit moves twice and zooms backwards into the fog of war. However, now the adorables have lost a significant element of surprise whenever they warp anyone on the board, regardless of whether the unit is already visible by their opponent. I am currently in a match where this made a difference.
The bramble audio thing is unfair to Veggienauts players for two reasons: 1. The opponent knows that they have created a bramble (especially relevant on maps with only 1 spawn), 2. The opponent can better figure out how wits are being spent. Why coddle a player by telling them exactly how many brambles to expect in the fog of war? They can scout if they want to know what's in the fog of war, that's the point of fog of war.
It's too early to discuss balance changes resulting from the update, but these are noteworthy disadvantages to using adorables and veggienauts. This is basically the same as making a bombshell visible in fog of war when it shells (although granted, that would be an even worse change).
I haven't decided whether or not I like the change, but I don't necessarily agree with your bomshell analogy. It's more analogous to showing the bombshell when it fires, which it does already. Mobi teleporting is the same as bombshell firing, or scramble scrambling. As it is now, all units are exposed when taking any action other than moving, even when in the fog. This seems fair to me. I suppose bramble has a slight advantage since his action is only reported audibly.
RE: Mobi visibility change - Emuchu - 11-29-2012 07:48 PM
(11-29-2012 12:05 PM)worldfamous Wrote: I haven't decided whether or not I like the change, but I don't necessarily agree with your bomshell analogy. It's more analogous to showing the bombshell when it fires, which it does already. Mobi teleporting is the same as bombshell firing, or scramble scrambling. As it is now, all units are exposed when taking any action other than moving, even when in the fog. This seems fair to me. I suppose bramble has a slight advantage since his action is only reported audibly.
I wouldn't compare a Mobi teleport to a Bombshell attack. Whereas a Bombshell attack would be painfully obvious (units would take 1 damage from a ranged attack), and Snipers reveal themselves when firing, the new Mobi behavior gives your opponent information he wouldn't have deduced otherwise.
While I can understand the intentional effects, for example, revealing Mobi as a Sniper lunges halfway across the map, there are also the other side effects, such as losing the ability to "fake" a move (having a Mobi-port mimic a normally possible move), and revealing that you're moving units around behind your lines, which both reveals that you've spawned a Mobi, and that you most likely are pushing around a Sniper or Heavy. It's a lot of guesswork we're saving for our adversary.
RE: Mobi visibility change - oneadamleft - 11-30-2012 01:24 AM
That's a bug. I'll bring it up to Alex, though I'm sure he's already been hearing about it.
RE: Mobi visibility change - GreatGonzales - 11-30-2012 01:45 AM
(11-29-2012 12:05 PM)worldfamous Wrote: I haven't decided whether or not I like the change, but I don't necessarily agree with your bomshell analogy. It's more analogous to showing the bombshell when it fires, which it does already. Mobi teleporting is the same as bombshell firing, or scramble scrambling. As it is now, all units are exposed when taking any action other than moving, even when in the fog. This seems fair to me. I suppose bramble has a slight advantage since his action is only reported audibly.
Bombshell attacks and scrambler scrambles are both offensive maneuvers that of course get noticed by the opponent, because these actively affect visible terrain. This is the principle that should be consistent in Outwitters if there is to be balance. Bombshell and scrambler can ONLY be used in such a way that they affect visible terrain. Mobi and Bramble have utility both inside and outside of visible terrain, and they should not be punished for taking action within the fog of war. OML is going for distinct playstyles for each of the 4 teams, and this new rule hurts players' capacity to maximize the playstyle - Adorables, sneaky attacks and flexible defense, Vegginauts, strong defense and creeping influence.
(11-30-2012 01:24 AM)oneadamleft Wrote: That's a bug. I'll bring it up to Alex, though I'm sure he's already been hearing about it.
Thanks, good to hear!
RE: Mobi visibility change - mr_funkenstien - 11-30-2012 02:39 AM
Mobi sucks. Scallways rule.
RE: Mobi visibility change - worldfamous - 11-30-2012 05:22 AM
The update says, "Mobi shows up when used within the fog of war". It doesn't say, "unless teleported unit is also within the fog of war". I'm not saying it's a good change, just saying it seems to be behaving as described.
(11-30-2012 02:39 AM)mr_funkenstien Wrote: Mobi sucks. Scallways rule.
Scallways suck, O'Doyle rules!
RE: Mobi visibility change - Gf!sh - 11-30-2012 05:33 AM
Scallywags suck for being free...
RE: Mobi visibility change - GreatGonzales - 11-30-2012 05:58 AM
(11-30-2012 05:22 AM)worldfamous Wrote: The update says, "Mobi shows up when used within the fog of war". It doesn't say, "unless teleported unit is also within the fog of war". I'm not saying it's a good change, just saying it seems to be behaving as described.
Yeah, agree. I just think it's a bad change, gives an order of magnitude greater disadvantage to adorables players than was there before the change.
To be clear: I'm fine with mobi appearing when warping a unit outside of fog of war. I'd rather that not be the case, but I'm OK with it. The current situation, however, is untenable.