(10-30-2012 07:22 PM)joelduque Wrote:  

(10-30-2012 05:28 PM)TheQwertiest Wrote:  i support the nerfing of the bombshells movement cause the current movement makes it too easy to get into position

If ever this gets implemented, I think it should be able to attack the same turn it gets into shelled mode.
How about turning friendly fire for the splash on?

(10-31-2012 03:26 AM)CombatEX Wrote:  No.

Need More Data

Let OML run the stats for each map and then make a decision. Speculating that bombshell is too good without access to the data isn't good enough to warrant a change. Bringing up the possibility that bombshell is overpowered is fine. Try to get Alex and Adam to run the tests and see if it's true. But proposing changes be made when we don't even know the full picture is jumping the gun.

Knowing more specific data would also aid in making an informed balance change rather than just guessing which nerf would be the best. At present I think friendly fire for splash would be the best, but again, we need more info to properly assess the situation.

Other Points

1. Early/Mid/Late Game
2. Bias and Exaggerated Perception
3. Small Map Balance Concerns

Early/Mid/Late Game
What are we aiming for? If the goal is to get as close to 50-50 as possible in matchups across all maps (impossible, but we can strive for it), there is another important balance issue to address. In the early game, specials are a non-issue. Now how about late game? It may very well be true that Scallywag players are the best in the late game when they can get out many bombshells (again, we have no concrete data that supports this, but for the sake of argument we'll assume this is the case). Now how about the mid game? Again, there isn't enough data, but perhaps Adorable or Feedback players have the advantage here. I wouldn't be surprised because putting a bombshell into siege mode is a fairly big investment. In the mid game when you can only have one, you run into some trouble if your opponent attacks a different side of the map because if you want to reposition the bombshell you have to spend around half your income for a turn. Not to mention, you can't even use the bombshell the turn you reposition it. So, the point is, yes, you're probably right that Scallywags have an advantage in the late game if they are allowed to get out a lot of bombshells, but there is also a good chance they are disadvantaged in the mid game (not saying either of these are necessarily true, but just something to consider). Overall though, the balance could be near 50/50. This is a lot like Starcraft 2. In Protoss vs Terran matchup, Protoss has a huge advantage in the late game. Does that mean Protoss is overpowered? No, because they struggle against Terran in the early-mid game. Overall the balance at the pro level is approximately 50-50 (for those of you who doubt this, go to sc2statistics at twitter). So what does Protoss try to do? They try to survive/turtle to the late game where they will overcome their disadvantage and defeat the Terran player. In Outwitters terms you can see it as Scallywags turtling to reach the point where they have an advantage over the other teams.

I hate to repeat myself over and over but I find that often times it's easy to misinterpret things on the internet, so just to reiterate, I'm not saying that Scallywags are necessarily disadvantaged in the mid-game, but it's something to consider. Bottom line: we need more data.

Bias and Exaggerated Perception
I would say that Scallywags are the most straightforward to use, and as a result they could seem too good. You hinted this in your post though you didn't directly say it. You voiced your opinion that the Adorables player did an interesting strategy, but all the Scallywags player did was put down some bombshells. I understand the resentment that an Adorables player can feel when in this scenario. That player may fell like s/he was more strategic because the Adorables are less straightforward, but still lost. This can lend to bias against the 'less skillful' Scallywag play and could lead to a potentially false perception that the bombshell is too good. On a side note, the fact that the free entry team is arguably the simplest makes it a good stepping stone for new players.

Small Map Balance Concerns
Now the following is just speculation, but if a problem exists, it's likely due to having small maps. You can think of it in terms of Starcraft 2. When the game first came out, it was pretty clear that Terran was too good because many of the maps were either very small or had close spawn positions enabled. As a result, Terran players could siege tank push a Zerg player very easily. You can think of this as a Scallywags (Terran) player pushing across a map with bombshells (functionally equivalent to siege tanks). As with Terran and their huge advantage on small maps or close spawns in the early days of Starcraft 2, there could very well be a balance problem regarding Scallywags on small maps in Outwitters. Blizzard realized this issue and now the 1v1 maps have gotten much larger and close spawn positions on the medium sized maps are disabled. I know that many players like small maps as it increases diversity in conjunction with the larger ones, but at the same time it's quite possible that the bombshell is simply too good on these maps even if it is not inherently imbalanced (on larger maps). Perhaps the best course of action would be to remove the small maps in favor of larger ones in the Ranked Ladder. We could keep the small maps for friendly matches just as they are kept in Starcraft 2 for custom games, but for ranked play we should strive for the most balanced map pool. That being said, we should wait for proper matchup statistics across the different maps to see if it really is true that the bombshell is primarily better on small maps or if they are better across the board and warrant an overall balance change. It's also possible that both is true and that small maps should be phased out in addition to nerfing the bombshell. Again, more data is required.

(10-31-2012 01:09 PM)daHsu Wrote:  Good points... do you happen to be a scallywag fan?

You're right that we do need more data, although a look at the general voice and trends in ST replays shows that bombshells are quite powerful. The problem about BS's is that they are useful in early, mid, AND late game. I have seen turn 2 bombshells that end up becoming a huge threat. Mid game bombshells end up stalling the game and eating up the opponent, while late game is just insane (again, walking bombshells to the other side). The other two specials have a very small niche (i.e. mobis are only really great for rushing/throwing snipers and heavys around; not so sure about scramblers)
On small maps, one or two well placed bombshells will dominate. But actually, the big maps are just as good for bombshells, since the large distance means soldiers are subject to more bombshell fire.

And @Alvendor: i think i'll try that! although I might end up losing my soldiers+sniper? Which is equivalent to a special

(11-01-2012 10:04 AM)garcia1000 Wrote:  I think bombshells are best on Peekaboo. They are not as great on big maps.