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+--- Forum: Outwitters (/forumdisplay.php?fid=11)
+--- Thread: Veggienauts players? (/showthread.php?tid=1139)
RE: Veggienauts players? - Harti - 12-12-2012 03:31 AM
The teams are supposed to be equally strong, not rock-paper-scissors. I don't have a quote right there but that's what OML said the other day.
RE: Veggienauts players? - TheQwertiest - 12-12-2012 03:35 AM
i dont think you can ever balance different teams to the point of being equal cause you can never test a game with equal skill levels. you can nerf the teams stats to let them more or less be competitive with each other but theyll never really be equal cause they have different functions
that being said i think all teams are strong in their own ways but theyre not equally strong
so i think they are more on the rock paper scissors type
and i dont think you can test their equality unless you can create a perfect play which i think is impossible because youd need some sort of AI where all possible moves are programmed and you cant do this because outwitters has spawning which multiplies the possible moves exponentially every turn.
RE: Veggienauts players? - The RawkHawk - 12-12-2012 04:07 AM
I think this link is very related to this discussion and Outwitters in general:
Perfect Imbalance
If you haven't checked out the Extra Credit guys - I recommend doing so. They often have some great ideas.
If you don't have time to watch the vid (lame) - essentially they discuss the idea that balancing is competitive games like starcraft is rarely as straightforward as many believe, and that the perceived 'unbalance' is sometimes an indicator of a well-balanced game.
That said - I do think there is a balance issue between Veggies and Scallys.
RE: Veggienauts players? - TheQwertiest - 12-12-2012 04:18 AM
(12-12-2012 04:07 AM)The RawkHawk Wrote: I think this link is very related to this discussion and Outwitters in general:
Perfect Imbalance
If you haven't checked out the Extra Credit guys - I recommend doing so. They often have some great ideas.
If you don't have time to watch the vid (lame) - essentially they discuss the idea that balancing is competitive games like starcraft is rarely as straightforward as many believe, and that the perceived 'unbalance' is sometimes an indicator of a well-balanced game.
That said - I do think there is a balance issue between Veggies and Scallys.
that was great vid. the solution. create more teams. haha.
so an ideal game should have something like rock paper and scissors to create a perfect un(im)balanced scenario?
RE: Veggienauts players? - Jacs9 - 12-12-2012 04:36 AM
To balance out the Imbalance that could be found in certain maps and when certain team matches certain teams, 2V2 will come in useful. What a certain team lacks can be compensated by another team. In these cases it would be the special units. But then again how often are specials used in 2v2 that I am not very sure. OML should allow an option for us to choose a random team when playing league games. That will make the match more interesting.
(12-12-2012 03:09 AM)TheQwertiest Wrote: jacs9 (A) vs TheQwertiest (V) - Reaper
Its not against scallywags but veggienauts is awesome.
You shouldn't show them this replay. Haha. It's injustice to all the pro adorables player. I am weak in using that team and definitely is not s reflection of how veggies can easily overpower the adorables. Haha. Try playing s friendly with a good adorable player.
RE: Veggienauts players? - The RawkHawk - 12-12-2012 05:00 AM
(12-12-2012 04:18 AM)TheQwertiest Wrote:(12-12-2012 04:07 AM)The RawkHawk Wrote: I think this link is very related to this discussion and Outwitters in general:
Perfect Imbalance
If you haven't checked out the Extra Credit guys - I recommend doing so. They often have some great ideas.
If you don't have time to watch the vid (lame) - essentially they discuss the idea that balancing is competitive games like starcraft is rarely as straightforward as many believe, and that the perceived 'unbalance' is sometimes an indicator of a well-balanced game.
That said - I do think there is a balance issue between Veggies and Scallys.
that was great vid. the solution. create more teams. haha.
so an ideal game should have something like rock paper and scissors to create a perfect un(im)balanced scenario?
The amount that Outwitters can be compared to SC is limited I think - and therefore some of the examples the video uses from SC do not perfectly apply to us.
That being said - I think the general idea that they talk about it worth a lot in any balancing discussion.
RE: Veggienauts players? - worldfamous - 12-12-2012 10:42 AM
(12-12-2012 04:07 AM)The RawkHawk Wrote: I think this link is very related to this discussion and Outwitters in general:
Perfect Imbalance
If you haven't checked out the Extra Credit guys - I recommend doing so. They often have some great ideas.
If you don't have time to watch the vid (lame) - essentially they discuss the idea that balancing is competitive games like starcraft is rarely as straightforward as many believe, and that the perceived 'unbalance' is sometimes an indicator of a well-balanced game.
That said - I do think there is a balance issue between Veggies and Scallys.
Awesome video. Thanks for that.
RE: Veggienauts players? - game_taker - 12-12-2012 10:47 AM
Great video. In regards to ouwitters I'm sure if you look hard enough you could try to find this perfect imbalance (wither or not it was meant to be).
--Side Tangent Peekaboo is just plainly imbalanced for bs.
Back to the topic, Veggie vs Scallywags. I have had quite a bunch of games vs bs using bramble. I have only won two, both on thorn gully. But the simple fact of those was that it was my opponents mistakes that won me the game. The first, he placed his bs in a position that allowed me to kill it quite easily. The second game, this was approx 60turns. Eventually it got to the point where I trapped my snipers in (in order to defend my base). Kinda screwed me over. A few turns later I noticed I was going to get overrun not just by a new bs, but by being outnumbered army wise. So i used bramble's vines hide my rush to his base (now with 3 hp). My attack force was 2 runners and 1 soliders and a bunch vines hiding them. It was an attack through the centre. It won me the game simply because he didn't expect.
Also I tried challenging you to a match but couldn't find you, is your account name garcia1000? You can just challenge me, account: game_taker
Bramble is the hardest special to use. You cannot simply mass vines, because if you trap your snipers you are at a big disadvantage. I don't I could be a highly experienced bs in any map using bramble.
RE: Veggienauts players? - Necrocat219 - 12-12-2012 11:10 AM
(12-12-2012 04:07 AM)The RawkHawk Wrote: I think this link is very related to this discussion and Outwitters in general:
Perfect Imbalance
I think it's a very interesting video to watch as a competitive chess player and an ex-LoL but I don't think it really applies to Outwitters too much. There is going to be some natural imbalance but thats been stamped out as much as possible. As far as team imbalance none of it is deliberate and they aren't meant to be rock paper scissors the thing with games such as SC, LoL, MGT is that they all have a large variety or characters to choose from and you can ban other characters too, resulting in there being some mind games in selection. Here it's random, ideally your opponent could be playing any team and they should be reasonably balanced. However the main thing is everyone has a team to suit their play style; We have mobi and scrambler for mobile and very aggressive play and Bramble and Bombshell for passive and turtle gameplay.
RE: Veggienauts players? - Coolio - 12-12-2012 11:26 AM
What I'm wondering is bramble possibly suited more for 2v2 play? Along with a mobi or something the bramble could play a defensive role as your opponent is more of an attacking player? I'd like to see if that would work.